Rules & Legislation Committee
June 15, 2023

1 Pages 1 - 51 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA Before The Honorable William H. Orrick, Judge DELPHINE ALLEN, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) VS. ) NO. C 00-04599 WHO )CITY OF OAKLAND, et al., ) ) Defendants. )_______________________________) San Francisco, California Tuesday, April 11, 2023 TRANSCRIPT OF HYBRID PROCEEDINGS APPEARANCES: For the Plaintiffs: BURRIS NISENBAUM CURRY & LACY Airport Corporate Centre 7677 Oakport Street, Suite 1120 Oakland, California 94621 BY: JOHN L. BURRIS, ATTORNEY AT LAW LAW OFFICES OF JAMES B. CHANIN 3050 Shattuck Avenue Berkeley, California 94705 BY: JAMES B. CHANIN, ATTORNEY AT LAW (APPEARANCES CONTINUED ON FOLLOWING PAGE) REPORTED BY: Ana Dub, RDR, RMR, CRR, CCRR, CRG, CCG CSR No. 7445, Official U.S. Reporter 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 1 of 52 2APPEARANCES: (CONTINUED) For the Defendants: OFFICE OF OAKLAND CITY ATTORNEY One Frank Ogawa Plaza, Sixth Floor Oakland, California 94612 BY: BRIGID S. MARTIN, DEPUTY CITY ATTORNEY For the Intervenor Oakland Police Officers Association: RAINS LUCIA STERN ST. PHALLE & SILVER, PC 2300 Contra Costa Boulevard, Suite 500 Pleasant Hill, California 94523 BY: ROCKNE A. LUCIA, JR., ATTORNEY AT LAW Also Present: Mayor Sheng Thao Interim City Administrator Steven Falk Interim Police Chief Darren Allison Dr. Tyfahra Milele (Via Zoom) Oakland Police Commission Chair Retired Superior Court Judge Brenda Harbin-Forte Oakland Police Commission Ad Hoc Head Michelle Phillips, Inspector General Charlotte Jones Interim Executive Director Community Police Review Agency Deputy Chief James Beere Deputy Chief Drennon Lindsey Deputy Director Kiona Suttle Captain Kevin Kaney, Internal Affairs 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 2 of 52 3Tuesday - April 11, 2023 3:32 p.m. P R O C E E D I N G S ---o0o--- THE CLERK: And we are here in Case Number 00-4599,Allen, et al. vs. City of Oakland, et al.Counsel, if you would please come forward and state yourappearance for the record.MR. BURRIS: John Burris for the plaintiff. Goodafternoon, Your Honor.THE COURT: Good afternoon.MR. BURRIS: Jim?MR. CHANIN: James Chanin for plaintiffs, Your Honor.MS. MARTIN: Good afternoon, Your Honor. BrigidMartin for the City of Oakland. And I have many esteemed citymembers here with me.I have Mayor Sheng Thao. Interim City Administrator Steven Falk. Interim Police Chief Darren Allison. I also have, virtually, the Oakland Police Commissionchair, Dr. Tyfahra Milele. Head of the Oakland Police Commission Ad Hoc, RetiredSuperior Court Judge Brenda Harbin-Forte. From the Office of the Inspector General, the InspectorGeneral, Michelle Phillips. The Interim Director of the Community Police Review 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 3 of 52 4Agency, Charlotte Jones. And subject matter experts from the Department, includingDeputy Chief James Beere; Deputy Chief Drennon Lindsey;Deputy Director Kiona Suttle; and Internal Affairs DivisionCaptain Kevin Kaney, who is also acting right now forDeputy Chief Clifford Wong of the Bureau of Risk Management.THE COURT: Great. Well, thank you all for beinghere.And do I have to -- hello, Mr. Lucia.MR. LUCIA: Just for the record, Your Honor, RockyLucia for intervenor Oakland POA. Good to see you again.THE COURT: It's good to see you.I got a tip from a judge who I admire, a former judge whoI admire that I hadn't let you introduce yourself. So,thank you.And, Mayor Thao, I'm pleased that you're here.Let me welcome everybody. And you can sit down.MS. MARTIN: Thank you, Your Honor.THE COURT: So my focus today, as it has been since Isucceeded Judge Henderson on this matter, is how the Court canensure that the City of Oakland achieves full compliance withthe NSA, the Settlement Agreement which was negotiated 20 yearsago with the plaintiffs and establishes constitutional policingin all aspects of its work.So I'm going to start this afternoon with a few questions 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 4 of 52 5for Chief Allison. Then I'm going to lay out my thinking basedon the joint CMC statement and the Independent Monitor'sreport.After that, I'm going to ask for comments from theplaintiffs, from OPOA, from the Police Commission, and then theCity and the Mayor.So, Chief Allison, I'm going to put you on the hot seat,as you have been a fair amount since I succeeded toJudge Henderson.CHIEF ALLISON: Yes, Your Honor.THE COURT: And so you've been on the force for theentire time, I think, of the Court's monitoring of OPD.Since I've been the judge, I've seen impressiveaccomplishments, like the dramatic reduction shown by the stopdata, both in terms of numbers and now even some impact onracial disparity.I've seen the risk management meetings become an effectiveway to support constitutional policing.I've seen the implementation of technology through visionand through the body-worn cameras.To the same end, I've seen a lot of policies implementedto shore up the gaps in a myriad of tasks.But here's the "but." I've also seen what seems to be acultural inability of OPD to police itself, to hold itself andits officers accountable without fear or favor. And this seems 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 5 of 52 6particularly true in cases involving OPD command staff. Andit's this lack of integrity, this culture that plays favoritesand protects wrongdoers that undercuts the foundations ofconstitutional policing. And 20 years of court supervisionhasn't solved that problem, which was a major concern withthe Riders more than 20 years ago.So that's my preface to two questions that I have for you.The first one is: How are you and OPD addressing this culturalproblem? And then the second part of that is: What canthe Court do to support you in those efforts?CHIEF ALLISON: Thank you, Your Honor.As you know, as you've laid out, I've been here for a verylong time. I started with the City in 1994. So I've seen thepolice department before the NSA, and certainly, particularlythrough my command experience, I've seen almost everythingthrough the NSA, going back to even 2005. I was in theInspector General's Office as a sergeant, later a younglieutenant. So I've certainly seen everything that you've seenand everything that you've laid out, Your Honor.You know, I think when you look at organizational cultureand how do you change it, you know, I think it always beginswith hiring folks that are aligned with the value of theorganization and values with the community. And for a longtime, we didn't have a community oversight body that existed,up until just several years ago. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 6 of 52 7I think the first step in culture change is really tryingto bring in people that you know have those institutionalvalues, and then train those individuals through the academy,through field training to make sure that's inculcated throughthe organization. And that extends all the way to who youpromote, putting the right people in the right places that aremaking the right decisions.I have seen us progress over the years when it comes tothe culture of the organization. I've seen great innovations,great transparency, great accountability, great communityrelationships and collaboration. But I've also seen bad decisions, wrong decisions,missteps, and certainly have experienced several setbacks,times where we're standing in front of Judge Henderson talkingabout them and now yourself, Your Honor. And so I always struggle with how do we hold that line.And I think from the leadership having that heart, looking atone's own heart and examining themselves and seeing thatreflected in others, I think, is important. So that goes back to putting the right people in the rightseats to replicate that, and holding account.I also think that as a business where the biggest assetare people, we know that there's going to be failures; we knowthat there's going to go wrong decisions; is working veryclosely with an independent body that can see them -- or see us 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 7 of 52 8independently.And I know over the last couple of years in particular, wehave strengthened our collaboration and our work with ourcurrent oversight bodies, with the Police Commission, with theCPRA, with the IG's Office, and especially with the ability toaudit us through the IG's Office ramping up over the recentmonths and year; that for those decisions that are wrong ormade in error, that there will be that net that catches thosethings that get misstepped.We're obviously -- all the setbacks, I feel them. Itfrustrates me. I would love to see us just move forward, justin best practices as an organization. And I know that weconsistently raise the bar high.So I think from my perspective, just reallyinstitutionalizing that culture; again, reinforcing not onlythe training -- and I know we've presented on Project Reset,which is a different training than we've ever done before. Ittalks about organizational culture. It analyzes our ownculture and then highlights being change agents of thatculture. And so getting folks to think that way and understand theimportance of it and then replicate it and get that courageousfollowership to be able to bring that forward is going to be abeginning of it; the policies that reinforce it; and then,obviously, putting the right leaders in the right place to hold 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 8 of 52 9account and see it for themselves and be supportive, from theother leadership, to say, "It's okay to make decisions. It'sokay to hold accountability. And it's also okay to makemistakes if they are done for the right reasons."THE COURT: So, and you're always going to makemistakes. You have and the police department has the toughestjob I can imagine doing. People are always going to mess up.Not being honest about the problems that occur; trying tocover up things because it's a little easier, it seems likeit's going to be an easier way of sort of alighting theproblem; playing favorites with people who either havepolitical sway or they're people that you just kind of like,that's, I think, central to what's going on. And just beingable to hold people to account, it's a critical thing. And Ihope and I expect that you're doing that.CHIEF ALLISON: Sure.THE COURT: And so that's one issue.How about the second part of my question? What is it thatthe Court can do, that it hasn't been doing, or whether it cando anything to deal with the cultural problem that has existedfrom the Riders day and maybe for a lot longer than that?CHIEF ALLISON: Well, Your Honor, I think that there'sbeen a lot -- I mean, certainly, any tone that hasn't been setwithin the organization, I've always respected the Court hasset the tone for those areas that we need to pay great focus 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 9 of 52 10to.And I think that maybe helping us as we get to thesustainability period. And I know we are several months intoit, and we've had some advantages and some successes, and we'vehad certainly some setbacks.Helping us focus in on the things that are remaining, thetasks that really are remaining. I know that, not to get toonuanced, but certainly the IA process, the discipline process,trying to really put all of our energy into that to set thefoundation of the cultural expectations, because I do believethat the policies and the training really are going to amplifyit.So I think from the Court's assistance is basicallyputting all the inertia into those last remaining vestiges ofcompliance that we really need to get into to have long-lastingcompliance.And I think, also, I would love to see that transitionover to community oversight, because I think we are at thatpoint to where that can -- and I'm not going to speak forthe Court. That's not what I'm trying to do. But since youasked about how the Court could help --THE COURT: That's what I'm looking for.CHIEF ALLISON: -- is that transition into thatcommunity oversight, because I think that the infrastructure isthere, and just what does that now look forward to, moving 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 10 of 52 11forward into the future beyond the NSA.THE COURT: Okay. So are you satisfied -- I'm goingto move on to a couple of other questions. Are you satisfied that the policies that were recommendedby the Clarence Dyer report and the systemic report, asmodified by the City in the case management statement, as wellas those that are going through the approval process, are goingto ensure accountability and integrity in addressing officerand, especially, supervisor and leadership misconduct?CHIEF ALLISON: Yes, Your Honor. And one thing I want to emphasize is, you know, there wereissues that were raised out of that report, and it ended uptouching 15 policies or forms. And so we went back and we dove in deep right away. Wedidn't wait to get it started or wait for direction. We endedup diving into those policies, and figured out one thing thatstood out, not only in the public report but in recentmonitoring team reports, was taking seriously those seriouscases.Obviously, with an organization that receives numerouscomplaints -- I think we closed about 1100 complaints lastyear -- that you can't scrutinize every single one of them.It's just humanly impossible with just the capacity. But looking at the ones that are serious and holding themto a serious level is important. That's the ones -- those are 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 11 of 52 12the ones that really impact public trust. And I think the policies put in place a mechanism thatbalances the workflow capacity with bubbling up to the topthose issues that are the highest importance that need thehighest scrutiny, bringing in the higher levels of review soit's not left to just one person making all the decisions at alower level; that it touches the executive team at a higherlevel where, if there are missteps at that level, then we canstart the accounting process at a higher level.Certainly, with the transparency piece, the betterpresentations at meetings and documentation of those meetingswhen key decisions, important decisions of discipline are madeis certainly going to reinforce that piece of it.And really, just, again, creating a greater sense of, ifthere's disagreements, it can't be hidden in the shadowsanymore. It's going to be out there, whether it's going to behighlighted in an executive summary or shown in meeting notesor track changes. So one thing that, to get rid of organizational culturalissues or threats to organizational cultures, you have to startshining light on shadows. You can't let things hide in theshadows. And I think these policies shine lights on areas andissues that are the right areas and issues to minimize andprevent those issues from hiding again. And then, certainly, the collaboration -- which I know 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 12 of 52 13wasn't necessarily one of the recommendations -- but thecollaboration and the notification to our oversight bodies --CPRA and the Commission -- will also give what I mentionedearlier, that redundancy and that safety net for those issuesthat might slip through the cracks or may be the product of awrong decision, an improper decision or a bad decision.THE COURT: So as best you can tell, these policies,if they're in force, should solve the problem?CHIEF ALLISON: I think it will shore up the process.I don't think a policy in and of itself solves a cultureproblem.THE COURT: I couldn't agree more. That is up to theindividuals who are responsible for the policy; right?CHIEF ALLISON: That's correct. And that's where -- THE COURT: So --CHIEF ALLISON: I'm sorry to cut you off.THE COURT: Yeah. No, no. Go ahead. CHIEF ALLISON: I was saying, that's where it comes toputting the right people in the right chairs to make thosedecisions.THE COURT: And on that point, I think particularly inthe last several years, OPD has done a good job of recruiting amore diverse force. The people that I met a few years ago whenI went to the seminar over in Berkeley, the officers who werethere, just very impressive people. And it's not -- I'm much 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 13 of 52 14less concerned at this stage about the force in general than Iam about the leadership making everything else work for theDepartment. And that's really -- that's what's got to happen.Let me switch gears for a second. I'm most heartened by the review and use of the stop dataand the way that risk management meetings are working. I thinkthey're at the core of whatever success OPD has had inimplementing the NSA.And so can you assure me that these are central to OPD'swork today and on a going-forward basis?CHIEF ALLISON: Absolutely, Your Honor.The work and the outcomes of those risk managementmeetings, I think, does show us in a highlighted, shining starin the profession. I have a lot of counterparts -- chiefs,assistant chiefs, executives -- in other organizations thatthey don't do this. In fact, I asked one executive of a majorpolice department what they do with their risk management data,and it wasn't anything; it wasn't anything stellar whatsoever.And when I think back on our risk management policy andwhat it's -- our meetings and what it's produced, either in theforms of policy -- parole, probation, handcuffing policies --or in the form of practices and training -- recognizingsupervisor promotion deficiencies in the sense of not givingthem field experience, so it birthed the field training programfor our sergeants -- the analysis into outliers or increase in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 14 of 52 15disparity. We had the report that we produced on Hispanicdisparity stops. And just the intentionality and focus ofissues and concerns that have driven down risk. And I can talkabout ECW or Taser use that has dropped, disparities, pursuits.And so I think that has to be a core staple of not onlyour organization, but any organization, because when you payattention to something, it absolutely modifies or changes whatyou pay attention to. And so it has to be a core function, andI will commit to ensuring that that stays as part of ourDepartment.THE COURT: Okay. So just to let you know, I'mthinking of no longer requiring the Monitor to attend the riskmanagement meetings. I will require that OPD provide slidesand the stop data to the Monitor. And you may, of course,request the Monitor's presence or the Monitor may, at hisdiscretion, choose to attend.CHIEF ALLISON: Yes, Your Honor.THE COURT: So here's my final question. The City hassuggested that I narrow the scope of the Independent Monitor'swork to Task 2, 5, and 45. I'm inclined to add Tasks 24 and 25to that list, simply because, at a high level, the failure ofIAD and the command staff, as documented by Clarence Dyer, wasabout addressing officer misconduct, as is the analysis of usesof force.What's your perspective on the City's suggestion and on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 15 of 52 16Task 24 and 25?CHIEF ALLISON: Thank you, Your Honor.I think one of the things that has been done well withTask 24 and 25, and use of force in particular, is creatingcapacity internal within the organization. So I've had thattask for many years, as you well know, and reported out on it.And we, through intentionality, have focused on areas ofconcern.Taking that and then replicating our own kind of internalstanding on it has proven to be highly effective. It doesn'talways change the potential missteps, whether it's a body-worncamera issue or maybe it's a use of force that wasn't reportedproperly. But the point that we're seeing is we're catching itnow, and we're catching it through our own command reviews. We're also catching it -- because of the speed at whichwe're catching it and communicating down, whether it's downthrough an accountability measure, NIA, or communicated down"Well, maybe it's not a misconduct issue but maybe is atraining point issue," it's causing it to course-correct prettyrapidly. So I think from a capacity standpoint, my intention is tokeep those command reviews going; that I don't see a reason tostop them, even -- whether those tasks are monitored or not,I think we need to keep that going because it's been proveneffective in not only catching the issues, but catching it 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 16 of 52 17ourselves and training the new supervisors to catch itthemselves. And so from my perspective, having that capacity and,certainly, working closer with our community oversight bodies,that we can maintain those tasks.THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you. You can sitdown.CHIEF ALLISON: Thank you, Your Honor.THE COURT: All right. So let me tell you what I'mthinking, and this is what I want your input on.Obviously, the City's not in full compliance with the NSA.The sustainability period is going to be extended.I'm going to hold another in-person case managementconference on September 26th at 3:30 to assess where we are atthat time.What I'm thinking of is, as of June 1st, I would reducethe scope of the Monitorship to Tasks 2, 5, 24, 25, and 45.But I also want to support the City in any reasonable way toattain compliance.And so I'd like to hear from, first, the plaintiffs andthen OPOA and then the Police Commission and then the City --and I shouldn't separate the Police Commission from the City --but Ms. Martin, and then the Mayor on what you think aboutthat, as well as any other things you want to tell me.So, Mr. Chanin. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 17 of 52 18MR. CHANIN: Thank you, Your Honor.When I spoke to the Court on April 27th, 2022, nearly oneyear ago, OPD was on the verge of entering the sustainabilityperiod. I congratulated the Department.But after saying no one is perfect, just like you did --and we are not looking for perfection in the sustainabilityperiod, just like you said -- I also stated what we are lookingfor is a department that can and will identify problems andmajor scandals when they occur and will not leave that job tosomeone else.All the major scandals in the past have been discovered bysomeone else, either a reporter, a monitor, a member ofthe City Council, or the plaintiffs' attorneys, or acombination thereof. Never has it been the Oakland PoliceDepartment.I further stated I am not confident that if a scandaloccurs in the future, that it will be brought forward by theOPD.Today should be a happy day. We should all be agreeingthat the OPD has ended the NSA and that federal oversight hasended. However, I cannot agree to this proposition. We havelost another chief who, like Sean Whent, brought us to the verybrink of compliance before disaster struck, in his case in theform of the sex scandal.We also have no resolution to the overuse of findings of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 18 of 52 19unfounded, which appear to be used to avoid the allegationbeing discussed at risk management meetings and other areaswhere an officer's conduct is evaluated.To end this problem, I propose that the Monitor, the OPDcommand staff, and the Police Commission, if they so choose,take a sample of the so-called unfounded cases and report ifany of these unfounded findings should instead be sustained ornot sustained and, thus, go into the risk management process.I don't agree with the defendants that the Court shouldremove the affirmative assessment of the tasks they mentioned.And I note Your Honor has left out Task 31,officer-involved shootings, and Task 34, racial profiling.They should, instead of being eliminated, remain an active taskpursuant to the rules of the Negotiated Settlement Agreement.I don't want to be here if, for example, there is ablatant violation of Task 34 or a questionable officer-involvedshooting takes place, and then I have to get into theargument -- an argument with the City as to whether I can eventalk about this in court or the Monitor can assess this.I also disagree with the defendants that racial disparityin discipline of black and white officers for unintentionallyfailing to accept or refer complaints is acceptable somehowbecause the same disparity occurred previously. That's not allthey said, but it is what they said.I am pleased to see that the Department intends to drill 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 19 of 52 20down on this problem. However, I still feel that looking atthe disciplined officers' video would also be helpful. I wantto be convinced that this discipline, which by its very natureinvolves substantial command staff discretion, is not a productof some sort of bias on the part of the supervisor meting outthe discipline.Furthermore, I want to disassociate myself from those whohave said, without any evidence but unknown sources, thatthe Mayor was pressured by the Monitor to terminate the chief.There is no proof whatsoever that this happened. Whatever wemay think of the Clarence Dyer & Cohen's personnel decisions,there is no excuse for Chief Armstrong's public comments thatthe Monitor, an officer of this Court, is disingenuous and onlymotivated by perpetuating the NSA.Chief Armstrong's additional claim that the Mayor wasforced by the Monitor to terminate him is, as yet, unsupportedby a single named witness and, thus, reeks of sexism.THE COURT: So, Mr. Chanin, I don't want to talk aboutChief Armstrong.MR. CHANIN: Okay.THE COURT: I appreciate your support of the Monitor,and he has my full support.I want to talk about what we're doing here, what OPD --how OPD is going to attain compliance with the NSA andconstitutional policing. So let's go to that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 20 of 52 21MR. CHANIN: Okay, Your Honor. What you can do iswhat you have been doing. I, of all people, know how long aprocess this has been: 23 years, as of December 7th, since wefiled this lawsuit. But I do not think that it was notworthwhile. I think it's hard that it takes so long. No oneis more frustrated than John and me. We cannot believe we'restill here. Every time I hear the case called "00," et cetera,I cringe, and I don't -- I don't like it.But I also think that your presence here, likeJudge Henderson before you, is extremely important. You helpthem toe the line. You really do. And the fact that it'staken a long time is really hard to digest. It's hard for Johnand me to digest. It must be hard for you to digest. You haveother things to do. I respect that.But the fact is, there are people alive today, there areAfrican Americans who have not been stopped by OPD because ofthe united efforts of plaintiffs' attorneys, the Defense insome cases, and especially the Court. You're the reason -- abig reason why the number of African Americans stopped hasdeclined so great.THE COURT: So, and I am in complete agreement thatthat has been a huge benefit, and I think the Court supervisionhas been a huge benefit. So I don't disagree with thosethings.I'm trying to figure out, and what I'm most interested in, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 21 of 52 22the one issue that we haven't made a ton of progress in is thecultural rot that existed at the time that you brought thissuit 23 years ago and that comes up again and again. And so Iwant to know what it is that you think is the best way ofaddressing this. MR. CHANIN: Well --THE COURT: And maybe you've just answered it. Maybeit's -- MR. CHANIN: Well, I think I did.THE COURT: -- just we keep doing what we're doing.MR. CHANIN: I think I did. But I want to say that I don't agree that this departmentis filled with bad people. I recently went on a ride-along inEast Oakland; and in one night, the officer dealt with fire on580, two criminals who drove up and down the street, shootingat each other, an event which ended in one of the cars crashinginto a neighbor's fence and destroying most of it; two womenwho were so disoriented that the officer spent nearly an hourtrying to calm them down. And that was just part of how theevening was spent. He got rid of me at 10 o'clock because hehad so much paperwork to do.This officer did an outstanding job. And I was informedthat this night was more typical than not. And all theofficers I met that night were courteous and trying to do theirbest. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 22 of 52 23We often discuss only the bad things. That's what lawyersdo sometimes. But this officer was more typical of the Oaklandpolice officers I've met over the years, rather than all theadmittedly bad stuff I've reported and litigated over theyears. So we can't lose sight of that, and I certainly don't.That's why I go on these ride-alongs.I want to say something briefly about women officers, ifthat's okay.THE COURT: Go ahead.MR. CHANIN: Yeah. I think that the only thing harderthan being a police officer is being a woman police officer.I've represented many women police officers, including Berkeleyand Oakland and San Francisco; and I know that being a woman isa really, really hard job when you're a cop.And I saw in the poll, however, that there's some goodsigns that certainly weren't true in the '80s and '90s when Iwas practicing law and represented women in federal court.For example, 76 percent feel respected by theirsupervisors. That's something that wouldn't have been true inAlameda in the 1980s.There's still bad news. Only 21 percent believe thepromotion process is fair. Only 46 percent believes the agencytakes claims of harassment seriously.That's something you could do, frankly, is continue tomonitor this, the role of women at OPD; talk about getting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 23 of 52 24numbers up, because I think women have a really positive rolein a department. An all-male department is almost, bydefinition -- I'm trying to think of a word other than --THE COURT: You don't have to go there, Mr. Chanin. Iagree with whatever you were about to say.MR. CHANIN: And I think, you know, calling for theprogress they're making on hiring women, calling on theprogress they're making in having women sergeants, lieutenants,and captains, that would be helpful. So there are many helpfulthings I think you can do, Your Honor. But we do have to end sometime, and I agree with that. Ijust don't agree it's right now. And I don't -- I don't thinkthat's the fault of the plaintiffs' attorneys. We were asshattered by this almost as the cops were.Thank you.THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Chanin.Mr. Burris, are you going to join in?MR. BURRIS: Absolutely.First off, I would like to thank the Court for cutting offthe conversation that Mr. Chanin was making about the chief.That was a very -- that could have been a very dark spot to goto. And I appreciate the Court letting all of us know thatthat's not the subject of this particular hearing and so it wasimportant not to continue that line of discussion, and Iappreciate that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 24 of 52 25Now, before this case started, Your Honor, 23 years ago --actually, for me it started before then -- I had written a --co-written a book at the time called Blue vs. Black: Let's Endthe Conflict Between Cops and Minorities. And part of thediscussion that I had at the time was about the culture ofpolicing and, secondly, about can we trust the police to policeitself.These were fundamental issues that sort of went to theessence of why I was -- why I do the work. It was reallyimportant because I understood that the policing component, ifnot checked and called into question, would have a very adverseimpact on the African American communities and othercommunities of color, which that ultimately was borne out.So I will say that as a consequence of the work that'staken place, the stop data and even Task 45, there's been somereally positive things that have taken place I'm really, reallypleased about.And as the Court knows, I've raised these questions timeand time again. And I will only say as an aside, on a projectthat I'm presently working on, I've had to really look at someof the other departments around the country and where they havebeen in terms of policing and the challenges they presented. Particularly, like today we're hearing about Louisvilleand the courageous acts of the officers; but I can tell youthat department is in bad, bad shape and African Americans in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 25 of 52 26that community are treated poorly. And I read the documentspertaining to them, I thought harkened back to where we startedfrom. Now, I hope that it doesn't take Louisville 25 years toget there, but it's a long haul. And so a lot of good effort has been made here to that,which we've acknowledged and I think the Court acknowledges andI think everyone acknowledges and which, I've been very, verypleased by some of the progress that has been made.But I'm still troubled by the cultural issue.Undercurrent of that is the policing oneself and the leadershipquestions, because I don't think you can sustain yourself ifthe leadership isn't there. And because we've had constant turnover in the last --since we've been involved here, I think that has contributed inmany ways to get a consistency approach to attacking thecultural issues, because the culture is a function of thepattern and practices that exist within a department and how --what is carried on from one generation to the next and theybring those set of values.And I think that, given that the numbers that we have, inmany ways, if you just looked at the technical aspect of it,it's been positive. We don't have the beatings that we used tohave; and certainly, we don't have -- the stop data stuff hasimproved; and certainly, as you know, in terms of the culture,the employment racial issues that I've raised previously around 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 26 of 52 27officers themselves, that issue is better. It's not completelydone.But the question, how do you get to the cultural question,is one. And I know the Court has raised that question. It'sone that I've thought about for many, many years. I know thatif you don't control the cultural issues, I think, and changingthe culture, I don't think sustainability can last, it can besustained indefinitely, which is the hope, you know. Rockne and I talk about our kids, just started outtogether, and now there are grandkids and I got great-grands. But the future was always about that aspect of it and whatdoes sustainability mean. And for me, it is not me, mygeneration or the next generation or the generations afterthat. And I don't know that we're going to get there withoutresolving this question of cultural change, where it's deeplyembedded in the soul of the Department. And I don't have theanswer to that.Now, I do know that probably if you have solid, consistentleadership at the top with accountability, where people areheld to answer like -- held to answer, which then we haveissues that: Can that be true? Is that true? Can we count onthat? Given a couple of issues that have come up morerecently. Because those individuals at a time were in aposition to demonstrate to all of us that what we put in placein fact sustained itself and does work. But it has not. It 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 27 of 52 28has come up short. And so is that symbolic of what can happen,or is that an aberration or not? But it is concerning. It is just very concerning.Because I think that at the end of the day, we've got to dealwith the cultural issues; and a lot of that comes, I suppose,from the training, the hiring, who you hire, how you trainthem, and how you hold people accountable when mistakes aremade, because mistakes, as the Court knows -- we all know;we've been in this business a long time -- mistakes are goingto happen. And it would have been a real test if when this particularcase arose, that the system that was in place handled it. Andthe second case that has come up that we're talking about, didthe system handle it? And if so, that would have been anindication of sustainability, at least at this stage.So now we don't know, and I am troubled by that. Andhopeful. But we can't stop or decide not to go forward. But we do have to recognize that the question of cultureis an ongoing process. It is not one day, two days, and youstop. It is how do you handled the problems when theydeveloped and whether or not the culture is such that you holdpeople accountable from beginning to end, regardless of theirstation within the Department. And those are concerns that Istill have, you know, now. And I think that, as I looked at the list that the Court 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 28 of 52 29indicates that they want to have continue with monitoring,certainly, they are all significant, honestly. We cannot turna blind eye to some of the areas that have taken place. Consistency of discipline is very important because howyou treat your fellow officers is how you may treat the peoplein the community, and that's very important. If you don'ttreat the black officers, the women officers fair, how can weexpect the people in the community to be treated fairly? Sothat's an important one, I think, that should be continued tobe monitored.The others as well. I agree with Jim that 34 is somethingthat that's a perpetual issue that should be included becausethat goes to the essence of what we're about here, and it's howwe treat people on the street and how people can feel safe thatthey will not be necessarily stopped just because of the colorof their skin.Now, made great progress, but we're not completely donethere. The numbers are still pretty high, you know. So, butI think that progress is being made there. I just don't thinkwe ought to take our eye off the ball in that particular area,45, 34, 2 and 5, of course, and whatever the Court thinks isappropriate.But I don't want to forget that we have to deal with thequestion of how do we make consist efforts at effecting theculture that exists here. And at the end of the day, can we 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 29 of 52 30trust the police to police itself? Now, we're going to have other outside entities to helpthat down the way, but those are issues that I still haveconcerns about, even despite the fact that we've done --there's great work that's been done down through the years.But that's my feeling about it now.THE COURT: Well, so you told me -- the last time wesaw each other was at Judge Thompson's induction ceremony.MR. BURRIS: Oh, that's right.THE COURT: You told me to read When the Riders ComeOut at Night, which I did. I went out and I bought that. Andit includes a number of reports and statements that were madeby all sorts of people that are easy to document. I'm prettysure they were accurate.MR. BURRIS: Mm-hmm.THE COURT: The thing that is striking to me is thatthe same kind of problem that existed in looking at whatthe Riders had done internally --MR. BURRIS: Yeah.THE COURT: -- is echoed by what happened recently,and we've been doing this for 20 years. And so my real question is: What do you think the Courtcan do to assist in this besides -- I agree with whatMr. Chanin has said. I think a lot of progress has been madeon a lot of issues. But the thing that you just kept saying 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 30 of 52 31over and over again, that's what -- that's the -- I'm lookingfor the answer to that question. What do you think?MR. BURRIS: Yeah. Well, obviously, the Court'sinvolvement is important.I do think that constant reporting of things, although Imust admit, it may require someone more talented in anotherdiscipline to really look at those issues. I mean, I do a lotof reading around these police issues as well. I don't knowthat they've been solved.I've asked Mr. Bob Warshaw, who has been involved in anumber of these, has there been any one of his cases that he'sworked on where the culture has been fundamentally changed in adifferent way? And he would say: No, there hasn't.Sure, you can have technical violations -- technical taskcompliance, which we have here. We have 55 tasks, and most ofthose tasks -- one or two have not been -- have been incompliance. But has that solved the question of compliance?Has it solved the question of culture change? The answer tothat is no. It may have an impact on it, but it hasn't changedit to the way that you feel comfortable.So I don't know the answer to that, and I don't even knowif it's solvable, you get down to. I mean, I've done a lot ofreading. I've seen a lot of reports of different cities. And,sure, DOJ has been involved in a lot of those and they've had alot of technical compliance, just like we have here. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 31 of 52 32But when the problem comes up, you still have the samequestion of police policing itself, the effort of covering upfor one's friends. That still does happen. Or you try to -- One of the things we have here, we don't have the level ofbeatings that we used to have on the streets. That's clear.There's been real progress made from that. And I tell peopleall the time, the kind of cases that Jim and I used to haveyears ago, we don't have those cases anymore. And that's agood thing. That means there's some people out there who arenot being beaten up, who should not have been beaten up. But the answer to it is, I can't tell you that I have iteither. And I don't know what the Court can do other than whatthe Court has been doing.But all that really -- the question is: How do youmeasure the cultural change? We can certainly measuretechnical compliance. But how do we measure the culturalchange? And that is a question that we may not be able toresolve right now, but I don't know that that means we have tostay in the process here indefinitely till that does happen.THE COURT: It is something I'm thinking about. Thank you.MR. BURRIS: Yeah. All right. Thank you, Your Honor.THE COURT: I appreciate it. Mr. Lucia?MR. LUCIA: Your Honor, I'm going to try to keep my 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 32 of 52 33remarks brief, but I feel compelled to play off of whatMr. Burris just said.You've always addressed us, and Judge Henderson addressedus, about cultural change. I can give you my anecdotalpersonal experiences with that, but I think what Mr. Burrisjust said and we've heard repeatedly is that they're notgetting the cases they used to get. And let's be specific. The cases were like the Riderscases, and those were trickling in after they filed thelawsuit. But we haven't seen those cases.So at one level, when we start talking about culturalchange, we can't really get in the heads of every person in theCity of Oakland, law enforcement, non-law enforcement; but wecan look at objectively a few things. And I think that's superimportant that the Court take into consideration that we don'tsee the types of lawsuits that they used to file. I know for afact because our office was involved in those. We didn'tdefend the City, but we represented the officers. We don't seethat. We hear about Louisville and places like that andMemphis. We don't see that in Oakland.Our firm is privileged to represent most of the policeofficers in the San Francisco Bay Area. I represent the policeofficers in Berkeley and San Francisco and many others. And wedon't see the types of cases that we see in other places,especially outside the Bay Area. That's one. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 33 of 52 34Two, I will tell you, I don't know about anyplace outsideCalifornia. Our law firm represents cops all over the state.I don't think there's a police department in the state ofCalifornia that has a structure in place to provide a formulafor success. When I say "structure," I mean the NSA-createdtasks. And I'm not going to get into whether you should keepcontrol of one, two, or more. But there are tasks in placethat have created and spawned a structure of accountability. Imean, there is accountability at multiple levels in this policedepartment, far more than any other police department I haveever been involved with. Ever.And so with the structure -- you've asked what canthe Court do? What the Court has done here and what theparties have done is they've created a structure foraccountability. And at some point, we've had -- we've comeclose to becoming compliant and entering the sustain- -- andthen things happen.Well, I think things happen because we're in the peoplebusiness. That's what we do. I'm a labor attorney. I dealwith people. You deal with people in this courtroom. AndI think we have to just accept the fact that people will makemistakes. We are human beings.But what I think you should expect, what I should expectis -- police officers are held to the highest standards,I think, in the country in terms of employees. This case is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 34 of 52 35evidence of that. There are cops in this country that aregoing to prison for not doing their job right. They'veexceeded their authority. If a cop lies, they're fired.Right? If a lawyer lies, well, maybe you'll hold me incontempt and maybe I'll suffer consequences. But every cop,especially in Oakland, if they come close to lying, they'regoing to get fired. Every cop is held accountable for theirbehavior.What I'm going to conclude with is this: I think wehave -- I know we have a structure in place now that is farsuperior to any other police department. And I know from myperspective, being on the other side of all this, I think nowwe have a structure in the City of Oakland that we didn't have23 years ago. We've got Inspector Generals. We've got aPolice Commission. We've got a CPRA. We've got a whole bodyof people that, as Chief Allison said, have to reflect theneeds and the desires and the expectations of the community.We didn't have that before.I'm used to working with civilian oversight bodies, andthere's a tension between those bodies and law enforcement.But the reality is, they're here and we need to make it work.And I think that the structure in place now will make thathappen.No disrespect to the Court, but at some point this has toend; and when it ends, then the Mayor, the City Council, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 35 of 52 36the City Administrator and, ultimately, the Chief of Policehave to be held accountable. By who? Not by a judge, but bythe community that they oversee. People in those communitieshave to hold these people accountable.I mean, my members, our members know, in a paramilitaryorganization, if you don't respect chain of command and followthe rules, there are consequences.And I believe that this city is ready to take on theresponsibility of moving forward, because -- I hate to saythis, but in the next six to eight months, something couldhappen; somebody at a certain level in command staff couldengage in some behavior. And I'm going to conclude with this: Our officerepresented one of the Riders. We were involved in both ofthose criminal cases. I've had the pleasure and honor torepresent Oakland cops for 25, 26 years. This is not the samepolice department. I'd love to know how many members have beenhired since the start of the NSA. By far and away, themajority. This command staff, Chief Allison included, havegrown up as managers with expectations changing fromthis Court, from the plaintiffs' lawyers, from the NSA. Soultimately, I think there has been a cultural change. And you're in a very untenable position, like I am.You're a judge; I'm a lawyer. I've never walked in theirshoes. Jim Chanin talked about the ride-alongs. That's the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 36 of 52 37reality of an Oakland cop. It's a dangerous job. They'reunderstaffed, they've overwhelmed, and they're doing theirdarnedest to protect the community. And they're not doing itby circumventing people's rights. We don't have wildallegations of unconstitutional policing.So I've been -- I said this probably 18 years ago. Ihaven't said it since. I'm going to say it now. At some pointthe Court needs to let the Chief be the Chief and be heldaccountable by those above him or her.THE COURT: Thank you.MR. LUCIA: You're welcome.THE COURT: It's very rare when somebody tells a judgethat he's in an untenable situation.MR. LUCIA: I know. I know. I'm in an untenableposition for even saying it. You're right.THE COURT: I very much appreciate your verywell-stated comments, Mr. Lucia.So let me go to the Police Commission. And I understandthat -- here we are. Please proceed.DR. MILELE: Good afternoon, Your Honor.THE COURT: Good afternoon. I hope you're feelingbetter.DR. MILELE: No.I am Dr. Tyfahra Milele, Chair of the Oakland PoliceCommission. Thank you for the invitation here directly from 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 37 of 52 38the Commission.Joining me and present with you is Retired Superior CourtJudge Brenda Harbin-Forte, Commissioner and Chair of our Ad HocCommittee for NSA Task 5 and 45. And Judge Harbin-Forte and Iare available to answer any questions you may have after myremarks.So briefly, I only have three points to make.The first is that the citizens of Oakland have repeatedlyvoted to have citizen oversight of the Oakland PoliceDepartment centered in the Police Commission.Second, at the January hearing before this Court,the Mayor of Oakland committed to providing the resourcesneeded for effective civilian oversight; and the PoliceCommission, with its policymaking authority, its communitypolice review agency, and its charter-mandated supervision ofthe work of the Inspector General, stands ready to assumethe Monitor's role in ensuring the Oakland Police Department'saccountability to the public.Lastly, the work of the Monitor has been monumental, andthe Commission has spent the majority of its time diligentlyworking on the policies he has identified. However, theCommission is eager to use its valuable volunteer time focusingon the issues the community cares about most; namely, disparateenforcement of the law and racial profiling.There's no question in my mind that the Commission, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 38 of 52 39reflecting a diversity and lived experience of the community,can and will do a more thoughtful job working on these issues.We believe the Court should now allow the people and theirCommission to take the lead. So I'll pause there, and I or Commissioner Harbin-Fortecan answer any questions if you have any.THE COURT: I actually don't have questions of you. Iappreciate your expression of readiness to take on these tasks.I have, under the NSA and the agreements that brought thecase to the Court in the first place, the responsibility ofmaking sure that the NSA -- that the parties achieve fullcompliance with all of the tasks. There are a couple thatstill remain outstanding.I appreciate that the Police Commission was not inexistence then, is in existence now, and I am encouraged bythat fact. And figuring out how to best ensure that thatoversight that you discussed and that I now have continues in away that is as effective as possible is what I'm thinkingabout.So I very much appreciate your comments. Thank you.DR. MILELE: Thank you.THE COURT: All right. Ms. Martin?MS. MARTIN: Thank you, Your Honor.I appreciate Your Honor's consideration to potentiallynarrow the tasks that are affirmatively reviewed going forward. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 39 of 52 40I do think that in addition to 2, 5, and 45, if Your Honorincludes Tasks 24 and 25 that involve use of force and use offorce reporting, that does make the most sense. I do thinkthat's reasonable.I do think that in the City's perspective, the more narrowwe can have that affirmative assessment focus be, the moreresources we'll be able to use to focus where there is greaterneed.That's not to say that we're not going to keep doingeverything that we are doing to remain in compliance with theother tasks; but there is a non-negligible amount of time andresources that go toward sending document requests and otheritems on some of the others tasks that we could, frankly,really use any time and resources that we can get to put towardwhere we really need to use those resources.So I appreciate that, Your Honor.THE COURT: All right. You heard the plaintiffssuggest that 34 should be added to that mix. What's yourperspective -- do you have an additional perspective besidesthe one you just shared?MS. MARTIN: I think that it makes more sense for 24and 25 to be on the table rather than 34 because most of theissues that will be reviewed in 24 and 25, plus 5, which areessentially all investigations -- use of force investigations,internal affairs investigations -- those form a lot of the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 40 of 52 41basis of the Task 34 risk management meetings. And then our stop data reports are now, quarterly, madepublic so all of that data and information is available.And if we're still sharing slides from the risk managementmeeting, I feel that that would give enough information tothe Monitor and to plaintiffs' counsel, assuming Jim Chaninwill also be getting those slides, to know that things arestill in the right place and that we're still maintainingcompliance. Because one of the things that I want to be clear on, to apoint that Mr. Chanin made, is that none of these tasks aregoing away if there's not affirmative assessment. Weunderstand that if something happens or someone notices anirregularity or there is an issue that arises, that any ofthese tasks could come back on the table for affirmativeassessment and we could find ourselves back here on anothertask.I am confident and optimistic, given the structures wehave in place, that that won't happen. But I understand thatthese aren't going away. So I want to allay some concerns thatI've heard from plaintiffs' counsel.THE COURT: And just to be clear about this, we'regoing to be back together at the end of the September. Do youthink that you're -- would you prefer to come back withouthaving had the more direct oversight of the Monitor on Task 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 41 of 52 42and just see how things have developed; or would it be helpful,in order to ensure compliance, to have the Monitor looking at34? Entirely up -- I mean, that's --MS. MARTIN: You know, Your Honor, while we're hereand we still have the benefit of Court and Monitor oversight,it makes the most sense to take some of the training wheels offwhile we still have some of the training wheels on and see howwe do. I think the Department and the City are ready for that.We still plan to present, in our filing, on Task 34. Weknow that's an area Your Honor is interested in. So we willcontinue to do that. But I think having as many trainingwheels off to see how it goes actually makes the most sense forthe long run.THE COURT: Okay.MS. MARTIN: And I want to also just pick up onsomething that Mr. Lucia said and focus a little bit here onpeople because, really, at root, that is what we're talkingabout when we talk about culture.And the Department has a number of people. It's anorganization that necessarily is made up of a constantlychanging body of people. And those people -- the swornofficers, the civilian Department members -- they share valuesand attitudes that have been so critical and continue to be socritical to this Department's undeniable progress.And while we do have at times, inevitably, setbacks, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 42 of 52 43errors in judgment, and at those times -- which these times iswhat I'm talking about -- introspection and change and criticalfeedback are necessary.And one of the ways the City has changed to address someof those issues is to provide community oversight. We have theCommunity Police Review Agency, the Police Commission, theInspector General. So it's not just trying to have a culturalchange from the inside, but we are trying to bring the City'sculture from the outside into the Department as guideposts.And I think that that is working. We are seeing progress.More often than not in this Department, the officers aresuccessful. And too often in life, we focus more on criticalfeedback and we don't give positive reinforcement when thereare good outcomes. And the reality is that people need both.And police officers and Department employees are people, andthey need positive reinforcement too.And we've had a number of successes -- which, Your Honor,thank you for appreciating that and pointing them out -- in therisk management context and some of the implementations thatwe've brought in through the risk management context, whichmost notably show themselves in the reduction of racialdisparities, in non-dispatched stops, and in lower level usesof force.We've had success in holding officers accountable forusing appropriate force and reporting that force accurately, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 43 of 52 44and officers are using their de-escalation techniques on aconsistent basis and using force reasonably.One of the reasons that it's important to talk about thesesuccesses is because they show that the people in thisdepartment are capable and willing to address any problem thatthey encounter and that they are committed to fairly andthoughtfully serving their community.Another positive in limiting the tasks that areaffirmatively reviewed going forward is that provides positivereinforcement to those officers for that good work that theyare doing and continuing to do and for those sworn officers andcivilian Department members who every day continuallysuccessfully uphold not only the letter of the NSA, but thespirit of the NSA as well.Thank you, Your Honor.THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Ms. Martin. Iappreciate your thoughts.Mayor Thao.MAYOR THAO: Good afternoon, Your Honor. So nice tosee you in person.THE COURT: Very nice to see you. Thank you for beinghere.MAYOR THAO: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.You know, the last time that I was here, the last time Iwas able to address you, I did share my disappointment in the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 44 of 52 45findings that had recently taken place, and I made to you threecommitments.First, I promised to make sure that officers who engage inmisconduct were held accountable.Second, I said that the City would address systemicfailures by identifying root problems.And third, I said we would continue to not only fix ourcurrent system of police accountability and public safety, butto truly reimagine it, to see how we can really move forward.And today I am able to say that the City is delivering onthose commitments.In terms of holding officers accountable, myadministration and I have made some extremely -- extremely,extremely difficult decisions over the last few months as itplayed out in the media, of course. And navigating thatprocess has been very difficult, but we were guided by ourCity's long-term interests. I always say that I will alwayschoose Oakland first and Oakland's residents first.At times we had to stare directly into the headwinds inorder to stay on course, and it definitely wasn't easy,especially as a younger mayor coming into office right at thevery beginning and having to make these hard decisions.So while I don't take any pleasure in having to hold Cityemployees accountable, I do take seriously the City'sresponsibility of upholding transparency and excellence. And 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 45 of 52 46this is why I'm in this position. This is why I fought to makesure that I would be Oakland's next mayor. It's for that veryreason: transparency and excellence.And I'm proud that our team, we met the challenge head-onin regards to those difficult situations that we were put in.I'm also proud to say that the Department and the Cityhave made significant progress toward fixing the problemsbrought to light in the most recent investigations. And thework has truly been collaborative. The Department, underChief Allison's stable leadership, played a central role, butit was part of a much greater whole. My office has met weeklywith the police department commanders and legal advisors toensure we were moving forward thoughtfully. Likewise, our esteemed Police Commission and our esteemedInspector General, who is here with us today, have workedclosely with the Department to also provide input and guidance,as well as our valued partners with Mr. Burris and Mr. Chanin. And that brings me to the third commitment we made, whichwas to continue to reimagine police accountability and publicsafety. The collaboration I've seen over the last few months,including from all the civilian partners I just mentioned, hasfurther proved to me that Oakland is definitely on the righttrack.I've thought a lot recently about what it means to reallychange organizational culture, the topic of today. And I had 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 46 of 52 47to back up and really think about how we should really definethe organization we're talking about.Historically, there's been this tendency to think ofpolice departments as their own organizations with their owncultures. But in Oakland, we've zoomed out and decided thatpolicing must be part of a larger public safety, what I call,community safety and violence prevention system, and that ourpolice officers have to be integrated into a much largerstructure. To me, this means that the best way to continuechanging the cultural at OPD is by continuing to weave theDepartment into the fabric of Oakland and Oakland's culture.The culture of Oakland is a culture of compassion, aculture of service, and, of course, a culture ofaccountability. Our City is known for having leaders, both ingovernment and in the community, who truly value the fairnessand equity values.Having a police department that is overseen by thecommunity with policies that reflect community values, it is areally great start with the ultimate goal, of course, to bethat it is ensuring that the Department is part of thecommunity and that it is truly sharing the community's values.And so the question becomes: How do we keep moving inthat direction? In the near term, my administration isproposing to add a dedicated staff in the City Administrator'sOffice to be a point person in these efforts. This person will 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 47 of 52 48provide the Chief of Police with a secondary civilian review onany major cases that haven't been investigated by our CommunityPolice Review Agency. And they will work on helping the Citymove as much as of the investigative work as possible to CPRA,which has a commitment that came out of our Reimagining PublicSafety workshops in 2021.Another initiative my administration fully backs isthe City's pledge to increase the percentage of female academyrecruits to 30 percent by the year 2030. I, as a woman myself,understand that women lead a little bit differently.Increasing gender diversity at OPD has been a focus of mine andmany other city leaders for years. It's been a focus of mineprior to being a mayor, prior to being a council member,you know, as a baby staffer and, prior to that, just as acitizen and resident.When Oaklanders chose their public servants at the ballotbox, we chose diversity. It benefits us in so many ways andhelps shape our identity. We can't fully erase divisionsbetween police services and other City services unless we erasethis glaring contrast in who does the work.These are obviously just a few examples of the workOakland currently has ahead of ourselves. And with so manycapable people invested in improving public safety, like thegreat people all here in this room, including yourself,Your Honor, we'll never stop finding areas for improvement. We 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 48 of 52 49know that.And running the Oakland Police Department involves a levelof transparency, criticism, discourse, and collaboration thatseems to be somewhat unique in policing. Our City has come toembrace it. It means that policing in Oakland will always be awork in progress, and it means that we have the solidarity ofpurpose to face new problems head-on because it's who we arenow.This oversight, yes, it's lasted 20 years, going on 21 orhowever many years; but it has changed the culture. It haschanged the culture of Oakland, of how citizenries can actuallyhold the police department accountable, how the policedepartment holds itself accountable. As we have heard, many, including Chief Allison, has grownup in the Department under this oversight. So I believe, as Ialways did, that we are in a space, a unique space where we arecreating a new culture for the OPD because we have people likeChief Allison and others who have come up the ranks, many whoare in this room with us today who are now the trainers, whoare training the trainees under this very culture. And so I thank you so much for your time and for having ushere, and I welcome any questions that you may have.THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mayor. I do nothave questions for you.I want to tell you that I appreciate your focus on this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 49 of 52 50and your action to show what kind of accountability is demandedof any civil servant.MAYOR THAO: Yeah.THE COURT: And particularly with the policedepartment, I said it to your predecessor, that this is -- atthe end of the day, you're the person who's on the top of thepyramid.MAYOR THAO: That's right.THE COURT: And leadership in this issue of culture iseverything.MAYOR THAO: Mm-hmm.THE COURT: And it's not something that the Court --the one thing I know is that court supervision can't do verymuch about informing people that they need to own up tomistakes that they make, be accountable and -- becauseeverybody makes them. But if you can't address them and thenmove forward, if you try to sweep them under the rug, whetherthe Court is supervising OPD or not won't make any difference. And so it is really up to you, and the people who are inthe offices that they hold within the City, and the volunteerswho have formed -- who are sitting on the Commission, and theOffice of the Inspector General, all of you are key to makingthis work far more than anything that is happening here onGolden Gate Avenue.MAYOR THAO: Absolutely. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 50 of 52 51THE COURT: So, thank you --MAYOR THAO: Thank you so much.THE COURT: -- for that.And I thank you all for being here.I will issue an order sometime relatively soon which laysout what's going to happen over the next -- until we meet againon September 26th.I am hopeful that as problems arise -- and they will --that they are dealt with transparently and with accountability. And at the end of the September, I'm going to look and seewhere we are.We went into this sustainability period without actuallybeing fully compliant. We did it because everybody was soanxious to transfer this case into the hands of the City. Thatmay have been -- we may have been -- well, it turns out we werepremature, whether that was a good idea or not.The City has never actually reached full compliance on allof the tasks, and I am hopeful, expectant that the City will bein full compliance when all of these new policies that havebeen recommended are implemented. And then we'll see where weare in September and what kind of further modifications we canmake with respect to this.So thank you all for being here, and see you in September.ALL: Thank you, Your Honor.(Proceedings adjourned at 4:49 p.m.) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1587 Filed 05/02/23 Page 51 of 52 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. DATE: Tuesday, May 2, 2023 _____________________________________________ Ana Dub, RMR, RDR, CRR, CCRR, CRG, CCG CSR No. 7445, Official United States Reporter 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
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