Oakland City Council
December 17, 2024

Pages 1 - 57 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA Before The Honorable William H. Orrick, Judge DELPHINE ALLEN, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) VS. ) NO. 00-CV-04599-WHO ) CITY OF OAKLAND, et al., ) ) Defendants. )_______________________________) San Francisco, California Wednesday, September 4, 2024 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS APPEARANCES: For Plaintiffs: THE LAW OFFICES OF JOHN L. BURRIS Airport Corporate Centre 7677 Oakport Street, Suite 1120 Oakland, CA 94621 BY: JOHN L. BURRIS, ATTORNEY AT LAW LAW OFFICES OF JAMES B. CHANIN 3050 Shattuck Avenue Berkeley, CA 94705 BY: JAMES B. CHANIN, ATTORNEY AT LAW For Defendants: OAKLAND CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE One Frank Ogawa Plaza, Sixth Floor Oakland, CA 94612 BY: BRIGID S. MARTIN, ATTORNEY AT LAW RYAN G. RICHARDSON, ATTORNEY AT LAW (APPEARANCES CONTINUED ON THE NEXT PAGE.) REPORTED REMOTELY BY: Kendra A. Steppler, RPR, CRR Official United States Reporter Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 1 of 57 APPEARANCES (Continued): For Intervenors: RAINS LUCIA STERN ST PHALLE & SILVER, PC 2300 Contra Costa Boulevard, Suite 500 Pleasant Hill, CA 94523 BY: ROCKNE A. LUCIA, JR., ATTORNEY AT LAW Also Present: OPOA PRESIDENT HUY NGUYEN CHIEF FLOYD MITCHELL ASSISTANT CHIEF JAMES BEERE DEPUTY CHIEF ANGELICA MENDOZA CHAIR MARSHA CARPENTER PETERSON MAYOR SHENG THAO CITY ADMINISTRATOR JESTIN JOHNSON INSPECTOR GENERAL CHARLOTTE JONES DIRECTOR MAC MUIR Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 2 of 57 3Wednesday - September 4, 2024 3:35 p.m. P R O C E E D I N G S ---o0o--- THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. This Court is now insession, the Honorable William H. Orrick presiding.THE COURT: Good afternoon, everybody. ALL: Good afternoon, Your Honor.THE COURT: Please be seated.THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: We're here in CaseNumber 00-4599, Allen, et al. v. City of Oakland, et al.Counsel, if you would please come forward and state yourappearance for the record.MR. CHANIN: James Chanin appearing for plaintiff,Your Honor.MR. BURRIS: John Burris for the plaintiff. Goodafternoon, Your Honor.THE COURT: Good afternoon.MS. MARTIN: Good afternoon, Your Honor. BrigidMartin for defendant, City of Oakland. And I have with me heremany folks, including Chief Assistant City Attorney RyanRichardson, Mayor Sheng Thao, Police Chief Floyd Mitchell,Assistant Police Chief James Beere, Deputy Chief AngelicaMendoza, who I know have been identified as folks to speaktoday. And then also here are the City Administrator, Jestin 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 3 of 57 4Johnson; Police Commission Chair, Marsha Carpenter Peterson;the Inspector General, Charlotte Jones; and the CommunityPolice Review Agency Director, Mac Muir.THE COURT: Terrific. Thank you.MR. LUCIA: Good afternoon, Your Honor. Rockne Luciafor intervenor, Oakland Police Officers Association. And withme today in the courtroom is the new POA President, Huy Nguyen.THE COURT: Great.All right. Good afternoon, everybody. And, ChiefMitchell, would you mind coming up here? I have -- I want toput you on the hot seat for a little bit. So, hello. It's nice to meet you. And I -- the firstthing I want to do is thank you for your decision to becomeChief of the Oakland Police Department. The Department and theCity deserve an excellent leader. There are so many challengesand so many opportunities to make a lasting, positivedifference for a great city. So I'm glad you're doing this.CHIEF MITCHELL: Thank you, sir.THE COURT: So you have served in, I guess, threeother agencies before coming to Oakland. Tell me what yourinitial impressions are of OPD, what you like, and what youthink needs fixing.CHIEF MITCHELL: Thank you, Your Honor.And I've prepared some remarks because I didn't know ifyou wanted me to have an opening statement or not. But I do -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 4 of 57 5I have prepared some remarks for that. And I could go intothat, and it would cover some of the questions -- THE COURT: Well, if you'd like to do that, feel free.CHIEF MITCHELL: Yes, sir.Again, good afternoon, Your Honor. And thank you forgiving me the opportunity to address the Court.First and foremost, I want to start by expressing howhonored I am to have the opportunity to lead the members of theOakland Police Department and become an integral part of theOakland community. Throughout my short time here, I've beenasked in several different settings why I chose to become thepolice chief of the Oakland Police Department. My decision tomove halfway across the country was an easy one. I enjoypublic service and I've dedicated by life to public service.Oakland has a very diverse, rich, and oftentimescontroversial history as it relates to the relationship it hasbetween the Police Department and the community it serves. Theresidents of Oakland are a very proud community, active, andhardworking, no-nonsense, progressive city willing to take adeeper look at the issues facing our society and work toidentify alternative paths forward. This aligns with who I amas a person and as a law enforcement professional.Oakland also understands it is willing to publicly callout sometimes when things aren't working as they should be andchart a new course, if necessary, to find a better way to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 5 of 57 6accomplish its mission or task at public safety. This, too,aligns with my personal and professional approach to leadershipand policing.Over the last four months, I've had the opportunity tointeract with and observe a number of our sworn law enforcementand non-sworn professional staff of the Police Department. I'dlike to truly emphasize to you and the members of the Oaklandcommunity that we have some of the most professional, dedicatedhuman beings that I've ever come across, providing the highestlevel of professional policing to its community.I'm extremely proud to be leading the Department that hasdone so much incredible and impactful work over this lastdecade to advance policing and its relationship to thecommunity. Yet, we all know there's still much work to bedone.During this last 18 months, there have been severaldifferent failures on the part of the executive staff as itrelates to internal affairs investigations that could have beenavoided had we just followed the policy and procedures thatwere in place; however, we know that it's not just writtenpolicy or procedure.It's about the true culture of the organization and makingit extremely clear from the top of the organization to thenewest employee on the Department what we expect out of ourorganization; what will be tolerated and what will not be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 6 of 57 7tolerated by members on the job no matter what your rank is oryour position or authority within the organization.It's about devoting the time and effort it takes todevelop the culture of constitutional, procedurally just, andmirrors the expectation of not only its governing body, but itscommunity. It's about treating people with dignity and respectfor me.It's about my newly established executive team setting thetone of organizational professionalism and accountability andmodeling the behavior and organizational culture that we expectfrom each member of the Department to uphold. It's about beingfirm but fair when it comes to upholding -- or holding -- ourmembers accountable to the highest standard of professionalpolicing and providing more than just what's required when itcomes to the continued education and training to those members.It's not about checking a box to get out of the negotiatedsettlement agreement or court-mandated oversight. It's abouttrue organizational change of the Oakland Police Department andhow we view our responsibility and relationship with ourcommunity.My priorities for the Oakland Police Department are asfollows: Provide the best level of public safety to theresidents of Oakland that we can, based on the resources thatwe have. This includes working with all our judicial partnersto prevent, fight, and ultimately bring those accountable that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 7 of 57 8cause harm to our community to justice. It's also -- it alsoincludes working with our counsel, our commission, our civilianreview agency to develop a long-term strategic plan to addressthe issues facing Oakland and its Police Department.It includes properly staffing and resourcing ourdepartment to accomplish this mission of public safety. It'screating a sustainable culture of organizational excellence,accountability, and personal ownership in everything we do.It's working to continue and improve community trust, ensuresustained compliance with the NSA, which will ultimately leadto the formal removal of Court oversight. This is somethingthat we cannot and will not rush through.And, finally, it's caring for the health and mentalwellness of the members who choose to take on this verydifficult profession that we call "public safety." We mustnever lose sight that the men and women of this PoliceDepartment are the heart of the organization, and the overallsuccess of our public safety lies with them.I am truly honored to be here in front of you andrepresent this Police Department.THE COURT: Well, thank you, Chief. That's a verythoughtful and comprehensive statement.So tell me, what has surprised you about the PoliceDepartment since you've begun your work?CHIEF MITCHELL: I would say one of the most important 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 8 of 57 9things or interesting things that's surprised me is how muchwork gets done with the amount of resources that we have.Coming up through the Kansas City, Missouri PoliceDepartment, a city very much like Oakland in size and in scopewhen you look at population -- it's a city just under500,000 -- it is staffed with a law enforcement staff of about1,400 and 600 civilians. It has -- it faces the same crimeissues that we see here in Oakland. And when you look at theOakland Police Department, they're doing yeoman's work, thesame amount of work, with half of that.So I've been very surprised and impressed by thededication that the men and women of this Department havetoward this city and its safety.THE COURT: And so what are the biggest problems thatyou've identified that you're hoping to be tackling?CHIEF MITCHELL: Well, I'll keep my comments towardsthe negotiated settlement agreement. And in my review of theincidents that Attorney Martin has shared with me and Ireviewed, we have good policy. We have strong policy. Andpolicy is ever-evolving as we as a society evolves with newtechnology and new equipment.When I look at some of the failures that are going to beidentified and have been identified in the documents that havebeen submitted to the Court, it -- to me, it's not followingpolicy is probably the key factor that I see. It's also not 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 9 of 57 10creating an environment where people understand that they'regoing to be held to a level of excellence. And I think that'ssomething that me and my new executive team, which all themembers are new, are going to continue to strive to work hardfor and continue to strive to make sure that we're takingeverything into account and looking at every facet of therequirements of the NSA.Because, again, I think it's important for us not to justfeel like we're going through this checklist to check the box,but we're truly trying to affect the culture of theorganization so, long past me and any of the people on theexecutive staff, the organization survives as opposed to just aperson surviving.THE COURT: So let me tell you -- give you myperspective about where things sit. Then I've got a couplemore questions for you. But I have -- I have sort of twodifferent -- and they're somewhat conflicting thoughts. Firstof all, one is based on the public-facing achievements of theDepartment and the other is the continued failure to be able topolice itself.So, first, I think that the Department does not get thecredit it deserves for the implementation of numerous policiesand hard work that have radically reduced negative andpotentially dangerous, racially charged interactions with thepeople that it serves. The most obvious metric is in traffic 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 10 of 57 11stops initiated by officers, which is down 81 percent from 2015for blacks and 73 percent city-wide. And the percentage ofblacks stopped has decreased from 62 percent to 41 percentwithin that other reduction.And this has led to reductions in handcuffing and deadlyuse of force, among other things. It's not to say that all iswell. Racial disparity and handcuffing still exists, forexample, and constitutional policing, as you just said,requires continued progress and focus. But much has beenaccomplished during this period while the overall crimestatistics show a real decline.CHIEF MITCHELL: Yes.THE COURT: So the basis, I think, of that progresscomes from several factors, including utilizing trulyintelligence-led stops; identifying officers and precincts andrisk management meetings that need additional training,support, and attention; and training up and down the ranks onracial bias and on successful ways to interact with the public.I think this was implemented by following the NSA,improving technology and data collection, analyzing the data toidentify places where disparities and problems exist. Thisallowed interventions and evaluations of those interventions todetermine if they were successful. And I also believe thatincreasing the diversity of the force by gender as well as raceand ethnicity has something to do with this progress. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 11 of 57 12So one thing I want to credit is the work of Dr. Eberhardtand her team from Stanford. They've done an outstanding jobfor the City. I hope OPD will continue to embrace them andtheir work. I understand they want to set up a data useagreement between Stanford and the City that would allow theStanford team to continue conducting novel research on policecommunity interactions without any financial cost to the City.I hope that's going to be finalized quickly.And I hope the City will continue to work withDr. Eberhardt, to the extent that she and the City can identifyadditional projects to which they can commit time andresources. Because I think the public-facing work of the NSA and OPDdeserves so much credit, I don't understand why there has beensuch a lack of commitment and failure of oversight to holdmembers of OPD accountable for their violations of OPD rulesand the law. And this has been a leadership failure.There are always going to be screw-ups. Officers will actbadly from time to time. But the failure to be honest andtransparent when addressing these problems is inexcusable.It's what allowed the writers to flourish when this case began.And the manner in which Sergeant Chung's and Officer Tran'scases were handled is intolerable.So the issue is, how do I address -- how do you address --this leadership failure? I assume the goodwill of everybody 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 12 of 57 13here and everybody's commitment to fully implement the NSA andto end court oversight. The City pointed out that the policiesrecently implemented as a result of the Clarence Dyerinvestigation haven't gone into effect when the Tran fiascooccurred.So maybe those policies have efficacy. But I'm concernedthat OPD leadership just wanted to sweep these issues under therug because that's what they've always done, because they likedor supported the officers involved, or because they wanted toconceal this from the monitor and the Court in its assessmentof the NSA. And, of course, it's had the opposite effect.And that's what always -- you know -- the concealment isoften a lot worse than the crime itself. And, apparently, someof the chiefs say that they weren't aware of these issues. Butwhy not? It's this area, Chief, that compels continued courtoversight, which is well overdue to be terminated. And this isa result that no one wants here.So, tell me this, why doesn't Internal Affairs reportdirectly to you?CHIEF MITCHELL: Well, I will tell you, jokingly, I'vehad a conversation with my chief of staff. And I will tellyou, I believe I am the Chief of Police of the Internal AffairsUnit. I spend a great deal of my time, in the short threemonths that I've been here, going through Internal Affaircases. I spend a great deal of my time reading each and every 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 13 of 57 14case that is presented to me.I can't answer you as to why this failure occurred in thepast. I can't. And I'm not here to make any excuses for whyit occurred in the past. What I can tell you, though, is, atthis point, Internal Affairs has my undivided attention. Ihave established, since I've gotten here in the last three anda half months, an executive team that understands where it is.And I am still learning. And I am learning from them.I've assigned Assistant Chief Angela Mendoza as thecaptain of the Bureau of Risk Management, which InternalAffairs falls under her purview. I can tell you, I havelearned, in the short time that we have been together, is sheis a stickler for the rules. So I think it's going to be verybeneficial for our department as we move forward.Again, I am still learning the processes, and she hashelped in guiding me through that, as well as Assistant ChiefBeere. These are two of the long-term commanders within thisdepartment, but they're both new to their roles as AssistantChief and that of BRM -- well, I guess, Chief Mendoza's comingback to that position.So what I can tell you is Internal Affairs has myundivided attention. And we will work to make sure that we notonly prove to this Court, but to the plaintiff's attorney andour community as we move forward, that we are serious aboutmeeting all of the tasks lined out in the NSA. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 14 of 57 15THE COURT: So if this is the sticking point forcompleting the compliance with the NSA, why don't they reportdirectly to you? Did they report -- in Kansas City, didInternal Affairs report directly to the chief?CHIEF MITCHELL: No, sir. I will tell you, I believe,basically, sheer volume here -- with the responsibilities ofrunning an entire police department -- they didn't reportdirectly to the police chief. My duties take me across thecity. And that's why I believe it's important to have trustthat you have, you know, talented and competent command staffin place to help you lead a department. And I think we can getthat done.Again, I don't know why the failures were -- you know --for the previous administration, but I believe theorganizational structure that I have in place will do that. Iwill add this though: As I have spent some time here, theresources of this department are woefully understaffed, period.The way that we dole out investigations leads to too many chefsin the kitchen. But we cannot change it right now based on thestaffing that we have.We ship lower-level, division-level investigations out topatrols for people to handle. And I would love to change that.But we just do not have the capacity to change that right now.So we spend the extra -- we spend extra time -- I spend extratime looking at these cases, looking at it through my lens of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 15 of 57 16what did we miss.Before this hearing, I had an IAD investigation in whichwe went over four cases. That's how I spend every Wednesdaythat I'm here, is going over IAD investigations. It is anintegral part of what I do weekly.But there are some issues -- some fundamental resourceissues -- bodies. Pure and simple. You have to have thebodies to do this if you want to change the way that you'redoing it that we cannot overcome yet. And based on our currentfinancial situation, I think it's going to be a while before weare able to overcome that, in my view. This is the guy, who'sjust been here four months, looking from the outside in.THE COURT: Okay. And you agree with me -- and Ithink you said it in your report -- that ensuring the integrityof the work of IAD and of the work of the Department is pivotalto making -- ensuring that the mission is taken care of;correct?CHIEF MITCHELL: Yes, sir.THE COURT: So I have a second set of questions, andthey're only partly for you, which is where has the City beenin all of this? The City is the defendant here, not OPD. TheCity -- if the City recognizes that this culture issue, thisproblem with the OPD policing itself, exists, which it has formost of the time that I've been a judge, the issue is, what hasit done to address it? That's a rhetorical question for you, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 16 of 57 17not so much for -- for the City.But let me ask you, Chief, since you've been here, arethere regular scheduled meetings between you andrepresentatives of the Mayor's and the City Administrator'soffice to review and finalize IAD -- Internal Affairs --findings and disciplinary determinations?CHIEF MITCHELL: We have -- I have a regular scheduledmeeting with the City Administrator -- City AdministratorJestin Johnson. It's on our calendars that we meet everyFriday -- either in person or via Zoom or a conference call --that we talk about different things that the City -- that I, asa Police Chief, are facing as the department head of the PoliceDepartment.Administrator Johnson has been more than accommodating inhaving conversations with me as I navigate my way through thisonboarding period. And I couldn't say anything -- nothing butgreat things about his communication with me and his support ofme.I also have these meetings set up with the Mayor. I haveactually two weekly meetings with the Mayor. One's to talkabout crime. And that's all we talk about during that meeting,is crime. She, Assistant Chief Beere, and Chief of EducationBrooklyn Williams -- that's all we talk about, is crime. But Ihave another meeting with the Mayor in which we talk aboutspecific issues as it relates to the Police Department and my 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 17 of 57 18leadership and management of that Police Department.As it relates to individual cases, we have not discussedindividual cases per se in regards to that. But they are onnotifications of our most critical cases -- our M4.1s -- thatthey are notified that, hey, we have had a serious violation ofpolicy or allegation. This is the notification of that. Andwe will keep you up to date as things progress should the needcome to inform you of an arrest or a high-publicity case.So -- but, in regards to the day-to-day -- this specificthing is happening and this is where we are -- we don't do thaton a day-to-day basis. I believe they entrust me to run thePolice Department and keep them abreast of anything that Ibelieve is important to them and that could affect the overallhealth and welfare of the City and how its community views thecity leadership and the leadership of the Police Department.THE COURT: So -- and I understand that philosophy.It hasn't worked for the last -- for your predecessors. And itcan't be the responsibility -- it is the responsibility of theCity. The City's the defendant here. It is the responsibilityof OPD. It can't be the responsibility of the media or, youknow, some whistleblower somewhere or the monitor to figure outwhat -- to identify the problems that exist. And there havebeen -- these have been big problems. And they've been goingon for years. So it is concerning to me.I'm trying to figure out how I can no longer see the Mayor 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 18 of 57 19and you and particularly Mr. Chanin and Mr. Burris. I don'twant to see you anymore. I want this to be over. And -- butit can't be over until there's full compliance. And that meanseverybody living into their roles. And you're new, so you getthe benefit of not -- of not having the history. But you alsohave the obligation, because you're the man on the hot seatright now.All right. So the issues involve -- that -- involvingOfficer Tran require the Court to continue to extend theoversight. I am -- I have a real question in my mind whetherit's necessary to mandate that Internal Affairs report directlyto you. Because, I think, with great respect to ChiefMendoza -- Deputy Chief Mendoza -- maybe she and youtogether -- but I want -- I don't want another chief to say,gee, I didn't know about it. It wasn't my responsibility -- Icouldn't -- I have too many things to do. How could I possiblyknow about this? You own the Department at this point. You -- CHIEF MITCHELL: Absolutely.THE COURT: -- own the problems that exist. And Iwant to make sure that that happens.I'm also thinking about mandating some structure where theCity knows exactly what's going on with Internal Affairs. Ifyou want to get -- finish with the court oversight, that is theissue that is -- that is stopping us. And there has to besomething that -- done that is different. And -- and I would 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 19 of 57 20have -- I had a lot of faith in the ability of people who haveappeared before me, before, to stand up and deal with theproblems as they existed. It hasn't quite happened withrespect to the internal policing, and it needs to.So, Chief, it's my hope and expectation that you're goingto be the Chief who's going to celebrate OPD's successfulconclusion of the Court's oversight with a commitment toimplementing the NSA, as you laid out in your speech, and toholding OPD members accountable when it's necessary. Withoutfear or favor, you will succeed.And I want you to feel free to reach out to the Court anytime that you think there's something that I can do that willmake you successful in doing this. So, thank you.CHIEF MITCHELL: Thank you, Your Honor. I appreciateyou.THE COURT: You may leave the mic.CHIEF MITCHELL: Thank you.THE COURT: All right. So now I want to hear from theplaintiffs, the Commission, OPOA, and the City in that order.I want you to throw away whatever speeches you have to give me,because I'm not interested in them. Thank you.I've read everything that you've written. And I don'twant to hear about how we got here. Unless you fundamentallydisagree with what I've laid out so far, what I want you to dois address the reporting and the meeting obligations that I was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 20 of 57 21just discussing and any forward-looking solutions to thisproblem. I just don't want to hear or regurgitation of whatI've already read. I really want to focus on how we can movethis forward.So, with that, Mr. Chanin.MR. CHANIN: Good afternoon, Your Honor.THE COURT: Good afternoon.MR. CHANIN: I do have some ideas that are writtendown, so I hope you'll indulge me.THE COURT: I will indulge you to the extent thatyou're talking about the forward-looking things. I just don'twant -- MR. CHANIN: I agree.THE COURT: -- a spiel.MR. CHANIN: I agree. I just have a couple things I want to say about whathappened between you and the Chief. And -- so I agree with theChief that the Department has a woeful lack of resources. Andmy wife was recently -- had her purse stolen while she was inher car. And -- you know -- and I've been a victim of a crimealso. So it's not as though we don't understand what it's liketo live in Oakland, which I've done for 47 years.But I also wrote down, if they had less scandals, theywould have more resources. Because they -- these scandals costmoney, time, effort. I mean, the investigations, the money to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 21 of 57 22hire outside investigators -- it's all -- could -- you couldpay for more police and, you know, a reduction in crime, whichwe certainly need in Oakland. I mean, I know that being a cop is a hard job. I'verepresented police officers, so I understand. Maybe not asmuch as they do, but pretty close. But you can't use theproblems we have as an excuse, even though it's a good excuse.But it's still an excuse.And that's -- that's what I have to say to the Chief. I'mnot saying that he's doing that, but he -- we can't do that.We just can't. We have to -- with the resources we have, wehave to move forward.So I'm requesting that defendants be ordered to come upwith a plan within 90 days to address the problems set forth inthe Tran case and the reports written by the Chief Investigatorof the CPRA and Ms. Callaghan. That they need to respond tothis in a public way, and we need to know that they areresponding. It's not enough to assure us or for the CityAttorney to assure us that this is happening. We need to seeit.And we understand -- and I've signed endlessconfidentiality agreements -- never been accused of violatingone. So I'm willing to do that if that's what it takes. I'mnot sure it does take that for many of the things that theyneed to do, but I'm willing to do that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 22 of 57 23This report would be written with input by the monitor,the plaintiffs' attorneys, and the Police Commission. Duringthe time that's being -- the report is being written, I'm notsaying that that's a vacation. The parties should keep workingon solving the problems created by the Tran case. Thatincludes cooperating with all the parties in this room andexchanging information.The report would give an analysis of why the Tran casehappened and propose appropriate training and policies to makesure this case did not happen in the future.And maybe there are no policies. Maybe, as the Chiefsays, they just ignored the policies. So, in that case, theyneed to have training that somehow convinces these officers,most of whom are command staff -- in fact, I haven't found asingle case in the whole Tran case where it's been done by anofficer. This is all sergeant and above. So they, of allpeople, should know what the rules are. And the -- THE COURT: Right. Which is -- which is what makes mewonder whether more plans and more policies are the solution tothe problem. And because we do have a lot of plans andpolicies, and OPD has implemented state-of-the-art policies onso many different issues, and it's great, and it's been veryeffective on the public-facing issues. And -- and it hasn'tworked internally.MR. CHANIN: Well, you're right. And I, frankly, want 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 23 of 57 24to try one more time before I propose the receivership remedy,which is, I think, something that should be on the table sothey understand how really, really important this is and how --I've been here, in this case, for 25 years -- 24 years -- Ican't even believe that. I -- you know -- it's not acceptableto me.And I am sure -- I would love to not have to come here,but I am going to come here, just like you are, until this issolved, until there's compliance. I'm never going away unlessI'm dead or they're in compliance, which is preferable to beingdead, definitely.THE COURT: You don't want to be incentivizing people,Mr. Chanin. So -- MR. CHANIN: So I'm asking for -- I'm asking for afurther case management conference in January where there willbe specific reports to you, whether it's in report form ortestimony form, about what they have done to implement whatwent wrong in the Tran case. I think a report is appropriate,because it has to be identified, in writing, by the police sowe have them on record admitting the problem existed and, moreimportantly, why it didn't work. Why all these wonderfulpolicies that I've worked years on -- that everyone in thisroom has worked years on -- have failed. Why has thathappened? We need an answer. And we need it from the PoliceDepartment and the City of Oakland. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 24 of 57 25It is important to remember that the Oakland PoliceDepartment attained compliance with the consent of this Court,the monitor, and us. The Oakland Police Department has proventhat compliance is not some sort of onerous, unattainabledream.In fact, if OPD had gone through the sustainability periodfor one year with no major issues -- or even if they had majorissues -- if they had come in here and reported those issues tothe monitor, to the plaintiffs' attorneys, to the PoliceDepartment who were not involved in this mess, then that wouldbe acceptable. But they haven't done that, and it's notacceptable. It's simply not.The latest case involving Officer Tran may be unique inthat only officers with ranks above sergeant were reallyinvolved. In fact, no police officer was involved in the Tranmatter as far as I'm aware. They're doing a great job undervery difficult circumstances. All -- all -- they need to be incharge, maybe, instead of their leaders, who are screwing thisup real bad. That's my opinion.I believe -- if the -- if the Oakland Police Departmentunreasonably delays what I hope is their very last chance, oranother major scandal goes unreported, the Court shouldentertain placing the Oakland Police Department inreceivership. Receivership is a harsh remedy, but it has beenused before in the law enforcement setting. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 25 of 57 26In fact, it was used by Thelton Henderson in the prisons.And he -- and the prisons were in receivership from 1995 to2011. And maybe that's what it will take. We only didn't doit last time because of the outrageous expense that Oakland wasgoing to be incumbered with to pay for the receivership. Butthat's, at this point, become preferable to continuation of thestatus quo. It just is unacceptable.And so it's -- the City is moving backwards withcompliance. They really are. And despite everything thatwe're all doing, the City is moving backwards. And this is thelast time that I personally am going to agree to some plan --anything -- without urging the Court to put the Department infull receivership.THE COURT: Okay.MR. BURRIS: If the Oakland Police Department were putin receivership -- THE COURT: Well, let's not go to -- MR. BURRIS: Okay. Let's not go there.THE COURT: Give me anything else that you think willmove this ball forward. I understand the threat that -- ofreceivership that you're interested in -- MR. BURRIS: Well, let's start with candor by the CityAttorney moving forward; okay? Let's discuss how this thingbecame visible to the parties, other than -- even including thePolice Department; okay? The City Attorney withheld this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 26 of 57 27information from the Police Department itself; from the PoliceCommission, who still haven't seen -- THE COURT: You're not helping me on what I'minterested in hearing, Mr. Chanin, which is how are we going tosolve the problem with respect to the police not policingitself?I don't want to hear about problems that you have withindividuals here, because I take the good-faith commitment ofeveryone here to ensuring that the NSA is complied with. So Idon't want you to use this as a forum for attackingindividuals. That's just not -- I'm not interested in that.MR. BURRIS: I'm not attacking individuals. I'mattacking the fact that we would have not known about this caseif it weren't for the press. No one -- THE COURT: That is -- that point has been made inyour papers -- the point that I made in my statements. Isthere anything else that you would like to add?MR. CHANIN: Yes. What's going to happen movingforward to prevent this from happening again in the future?That's what I would like to hear some discussion about.We've seen this happen over and over and over again. It'stime for it to end. I don't care what you say or what theydecide, it has to end. This can't go on for -- year after yearafter year.THE COURT: You and I are -- and I think everybody 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 27 of 57 28here -- is on that same page.MR. CHANIN: I mean, John and I -- THE COURT: Is there anything else?MR. CHANIN: John and I were talking the other dayabout what this would be like in 50 years when I'm 127. And hesort of -- MR. BURRIS: 125.MR. CHANIN: 125. And he sort of imitated me hobblingup to the Court and saying -- you know, probably being out ofit -- but just saying, "Objection, Your Honor, this can't goon." We were laughing about it, but it's deadly serious.THE COURT: It is deadly -- I could not agree with youmore. It is deadly serious. It's very important.Is there anything else that you want to add?MR. CHANIN: So I would like you to order that thePolice Commission -- who will speak later -- that they don'teven have access to these reports -- one of which was writtenby their own employee -- I'd like you to order that they get tosee it just like you ordered that we got to see it. Becausepeople need to know what's happening in their PoliceDepartment, especially a commission that was passed with 85 --with 80 percent of the votes of the people of Oakland. Theystill don't have the reports. They still are being kept in thedark. And I would like you to do something about it. Thankyou. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 28 of 57 29THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chanin.Mr. Burris?MR. BURRIS: You know, I was listening to the Chief,as I've listened to all the other chiefs down through theyears, all of whom, as the Court has said, and I also believe,has exercised good faith. And I've got to come to know a lotof. All generally excellent people who all had the bestintentions in mind.But in listening to it -- and today I was thinking aboutthe Titanic and shuffling the cards and the tables on theTitanic and expecting a different result than we've had in thepast. And that part is troubling.And I think the Court has mentioned a lot of thosepositive things that I feel very positive about and veryexcellent points that have been made. And I think that -- Ifeel good that -- the commitment that OPD has made in dealingwith the community itself -- that part has been good.The problem is it can't deal with itself. And that's whatyou and -- you're trying to deal with and I'm trying to dealwith. And it raises two questions that have not -- twosections -- one is how the police, police themselves. Thatissue is there. But, also, as a subset of that, which theCourt did not mention, and that is in the consistency ofdiscipline. And I just want to say, that is as extraordinarilyimportant as anything else. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 29 of 57 30And you've seen the data around it. There's still issuesabout whether African American officers receive disparatetreatment along the way in certain areas. But I think as welook at the totality of how do we get into the last areas --done -- get it done -- thought has to be given to how that'sdone. Policies and procedures -- I see all of that. I see allof the things. And I think the Court is right. You can writeconsistent policies and we could see all the numbers, but, atthe end of the day, the numbers tell a different story aboutthe policies.I think that one of the things we have to keep in mind --I don't think it's a question of policies and procedures. It'sabout people. It's about the people and the integrity of thepeople in their position. And the question is, how do you --what kind of checks and balances exist in order to know aninvestigation has taken place that has been reviewed properlyand that we know that it's not being influenced by the personof bias that an officer may have toward the people involved?And that's where we are here. And I think that goesthrough the lines. And we talk about culture. That is theculture that we're trying to attack. And how do we get tothat? And I think the Court has raised that and has asked fora report. I don't know how that gets done without more directCourt involvement.And I don't mean a receivership, because I think that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 30 of 57 31that's more complicated. You know, we've tried that. Becausethe Department's come a long ways. That part is not necessary.But it has not come a long ways on these two parts, whichcould -- the Court could be more involved in.And I would think that what that means to me is that theCourt, through its own staff, would look at and have individualmeetings not only with the Chief -- because the Chief is theChief -- but there are people who are doing that work. And theChief has to know, along with the checks and balances along theway, and the Court has to be satisfied that those checks andbalances are something that are in place for real and notnecessarily rubber-stamped.Because what we've seen in the past when we saw people --there's been a rubber-stamping of things. And it goes all theway up the line. So how do we get control of that? Because,at the end of the day, it's the people.And so I'm only suggesting to the Court that if you lookat these issues, that the Court has more of a hands-oninvolvement and more individual meetings. Not enough for theChief to meet with this person and that person and get reports.The question is who's going to hold the Chief accountable forwhat has taken place? That's you. That's the Judge. Andthat's the Court. And so I'm suggesting that the Court involve itself moreso -- either regularly scheduled meetings or random-time 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 31 of 57 32meetings -- but, somehow, through its own staff -- it might notbe you personally -- but have checks and balances on thesethings to see whether or not the employees, themselves, arebeing properly looked at, at the early stages. Not later. Notwhen there have been four or five officers and command peoplehave rubber-stamped it, but, along the way, how has that takenplace? And that's what I'm concerned about.Because, to me, it's not the policies and procedures.It's the integrity of the people who are doing theinvestigations. And how do you check those people early enoughso they are in line with the policies and procedures? And itgoes all the way up the line.THE COURT: Well, so, Mr. Burris, on that idea -- notthat I want the -- MR. BURRIS: I got -- I got -- THE COURT: -- the Court to not have responsibility --but don't you think that the first line past the Chief is theCity? Isn't that -- doesn't the City have -- employ the Chief?Isn't OPD under the arm of the City? Isn't that the -- isn'tthat the place -- MR. BURRIS: Yes.THE COURT: -- where -- where things should at leaststart -- MR. BURRIS: Having been involved in a number ofquestions in cities about pattern and practice, the official 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 32 of 57 33policymaker is the City. You know, it's the City Manager.And, from there, it's the Mayor. They can designate, whichthey apparently have done to the Chief. But I think that itreally gets down to the City Manager and the Mayor has theultimate responsibility of reporting to you on the checks andbalances that have taken place so that a proper evaluation cantake place.The feet must be held to the fire on this, otherwise we'llnever get out of this. And I'm using an analogy, but I thinkthere's some truth to it. If you do the same -- you know -- Ithink Einstein said, before anyone else, doing the same oldthing expecting a different result is insanity. Well, that'show I feel after 25 years -- or 24 years.Well, that's my thought about -- in response to theCourt's question about what do we do next, because what we'vedone in the past has not worked. They've got all the goodintentions. They all sound great. We all got good intentions.But that doesn't get you the result I think we need now.THE COURT: Okay.MR. BURRIS: Thank you.THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Burris.All right. So let's go to the Commission.MS. CARPENTER PETERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.May it please the Court. I'm Marsha Carpenter Peterson,and I am the Chair of the Police Commission. I will not also 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 33 of 57 34go over what I'm sure you already read in our statement. And Iwill refer you to pages 55 to 60, where, as a commission andour ad hoc made up of our community members, we are alwayslooking forward to what has to happen. Because we are theentity that will replace the Court and the monitor. So it'svery important that we conceive and perceive of ways to makethis work.We're not interested in receiving something that is just asham, if you will, because boxes have been checked. We want,of course, real and sustained, demonstrated cultural changewith the department. And, for that reason, we try very hard tosubmit to -- THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. "We try very hard tosubmit to" and then you kind of cut out.THE COURT: That was the court reporter who isreporting this remotely.MS. CARPENTER PETERSON: Okay. We've tried very hardto submit to forward-thinking remedies for what we see are theproblems within the Oakland Police Department. So I only wantto list two things that are very important, especially sincethe monitor has called them out. And that's the culture withinthe Department.We feel as though the City and OPD has to demonstratecultural change. I listened to the Chief. I'm thankful thatyou saw that the philosophy he laid out had been tried under 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 34 of 57 35predecessors, but it hasn't worked. And, of course, cliche iswhen you continue to do the same thing over and over and expecta different result. That's insanity. And that's what we findourselves in for 21 years trying the same thing. Let's trysomething different. Let's think outside of the box about whatcan be done to actually find that officers embrace oversight,constitutional policing in a very real, everyday way.So there needs to be a laser focus on the need for OPD toalign its culture with the values of the Oakland community. Wewant just and fair policing. How do we get that? Well, webelieve, as a commission, this will begin with rigorous,comprehensive training programs -- new training. Get in theirheads about what we're trying to do here and why.We found out, as a Commission, just this past academy wasthe first time the Commission was introduced to the cadets.They didn't know anything about the Commission. How can thatbe when we are the ones that will be holding them accountablefor their misconduct and their violations? So we think this training should include the Department'shistorical context. How do we get here? Required reading.Read "The Riders" [sic] book, if nothing else. And tounderstand current ethical standards, they need to address thehistory, they need to foster empathy, they need to upholdprofessionalism, and they need to rebuild trust with thecommunity. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 35 of 57 36So we feel like that enduring compliance requires that OPDintegrate those NSA 52 tasks into its cultural identity.You're going to have to change the way you're thinking aboutthis. And I would just say, to quote James Baldwin, "Noteverything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can bechanged unless you face it." So they need to know why we'rehere.The second thing I want to lift up is the City and OPDneed to prioritize civilian oversight. We are here, and we arehere for a reason. Measure LL was passed with 83 percent ofthe voters in Oakland. S1 by another large percentage. Sowe're here. So stop advancing charter amendments or ordinancechanges to diminish our authority.We need our vacancies on the Commission to be takenseriously and filled with haste. We need full-throttle supportof CPRA, the Office of the Inspector General, and theCommission's mission and funding. And I understand the City isunder deficits. But, at the same time, things need to happen.And this should be prioritized -- oversight.And cooperate in our document requests. We startedrequesting documents in IAD Case 23-0477 back in April of 2023.And we sent the request to the Interim Chief, Darren Allison.Crickets. We've sent another request -- we, in fact, sent atotal of four requests -- three to the City Administrator, CC'dthe Chief, and everyone else -- the City Attorney and everyone 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 36 of 57 37else -- can we have these documents? We finally got an answerlast Thursday. And it was, no, you're looking at the wrongoffice. Not the City Administrator, not OCA, but ask thePolice Department -- the Chief -- directly, which we had doneback -- last year.So I think they have to understand that -- and the Cityand OPD -- that they have to fully embrace the Commission'swork, as well, as part of this transition that we're lookingfor. Not -- and as the Court said, not only OPD and the City,but also the Commission and its divisions -- OIG and CPRA --are integral to the success of NSA.So I would just say that the training -- we've suggested alist of trainers that can be accessed that -- some arecommunity-based. So you can understand the community wants towork with you for this to be successful. So those are the twothings I would say that we have offered to the Court. And I'mwilling to answer any questions you have.THE COURT: I appreciate your statement. Thank youvery much, Ms. Carpenter Peterson.MS. CARPENTER PETERSON: Okay. Thank you.THE COURT: Mr. Lucia?MR. LUCIA: Afternoon, again, Your Honor.I've been thinking about your comments to Chief Mitchelland your two specific suggestions. So I want to respond tothose. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 37 of 57 38THE COURT: Okay.MR. LUCIA: But, before, if you can indulge me, I wantto just say a few things about who I am, because my commentsneed to be put in context.So my entire adult life -- 40-something years -- I'veworked with and for police officers. I'm used to dealing withtheir command structure. I'm used to dealing with things likethe affairs of internal -- internal affairs function. And whatyou've proposed is intriguing to me. But, as you said, it'sout of the box. So I haven't had a chance to speak to myclient, obviously, about this, but I'm going to make thesecomments based on what I think he would agree with.But -- so two other things. One, as to cultural change,Brigid Martin, I think, statistically shows the Court thatthere is cultural change. You and others today have commentedon the line workers at OPD and the fantastic, incredible workthey do. They are woefully understaffed, as Chief Mitchellsaid, and they're doing an incredible job, one. So she, Ithink, has done an incredible job doing that.Two, I've had the opportunity to meet with Chief Mitchelljust twice. But, both times, I've found him to be verysincere, focused, and caring about the City of Oakland and thePolice Department. So he's been here, I think, about 100 daysor so, and I think that the rank and file support him and hisefforts. Because he has shown us that he does care about the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 38 of 57 39City and the Police Department.So, that being said, what you've proposed is that there bea direct line of reporting from Internal Affairs to the Chiefof Police. That's not typically done. I think the Chief kindof alluded to that. There's usually layers of command, as youknow from the cases, between the Chief.In my younger days, when I was representing individualofficers in discipline cases, termination cases, very seriouscases, it was quite often -- and in Oakland -- where I wouldbring -- the Deputy Chief would come in, or the Chief wouldcome in, in defense of the City's position. And I wouldcross-examine that individual and oftentimes find out thatperhaps they didn't read the entire file. Perhaps they weren'tfamiliar with the facts, because they were getting it thirdhand. And, as Chief Mitchell says, they have to read a lot ofpaper. And, in Oakland, it's voluminous.So I think it's a little bit out of the box. It's nothingI've ever heard of in my 40-plus years of an Internal AffairsDivision having a direct report to the Chief of Police. Iactually think it's a great idea, because you're talking aboutcultural change, this Chief of Police brings a differentculture. He brings a different set of values. One that --where I think we all share. But his life experiences havebrought a different approach.So I personally believe -- he may not like me to say this. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 39 of 57 40But if he was able to spend more time dealing directly with theIA Commander, going over cases more than once a week for anhour or two, that I think that he would now start to embrace,really, the function, the line investigation -- he talked aboutdivisional investigations. Basically, those are farmed out tosergeants out in the field. They don't have time. So if hecan embrace some of that -- bring some of it into IA -- but, ata minimum, I think what he will do is he will start to see theproblems and he will be embedded in the actual disciplinaryprocess.Because if I'm a Sergeant of Police, and I'm doing anInternal Affairs investigation, and I know that the Chief ofPolice, early on -- not at the end when we go to arbitration toadjudicate the discipline -- but, early on, that the Chief ofPolice is going to be reviewing my work, I think I may take adifferent approach, maybe. So I actually think that's a reallygood idea.Now, your second idea about -- or your concept ofreporting to the City -- by the way, I don't think we need tomake dramatic changes. I believe that the cultural change hasoccurred. We have policies and procedures at OPD like no otherdepartment in the country. I'm 100 percent confident of that.So that's an accomplishment that you, the City, the Department,the plaintiffs can take pride in.But in terms of the City intervening and taking 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 40 of 57 41responsibility, of course. Chief Mitchell is a departmenthead. And the City Administrator has many department heads.Do I think the Police Department's the most importantdepartment? Of course I do, because it's public safety.So I think it's actually a good idea to have the Chief --now I'm layering more work on him -- to have more contact withthe City. In my humble opinion -- I am not embedded at OPD. Idon't know how it works. I've dealt with Brigid. I have a lotof respect for her. She is the City Attorney's Office at OPD.Again, I don't know what her role exactly is. But it wouldn'thurt -- my view -- to have the lawyer, who works with theDepartment, have more communication with the Chief.And she might -- I'm assuming she does. But you'retalking about raising it to a different level. So I'm thinkingthat Brigid Martin, or whoever sits at her chair, and the IACommander and the Chief of Police -- if we have more synergybetween those three people, I think we could have avoided thePhong Tran case. I think we can avoid some of these things.So, I think, in real terms, very practical terms, I thinkit's a super interesting idea -- one that I've not heard of.There's a lot at stake here. I, too, have been here for 25years. I don't want to come here anymore. I like seeing you,but I don't want to see you again. I like these two guys, butwe're all old, and we're ready to go. So I think change --your idea of just that change with a new chief who we have a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 41 of 57 42lot of confidence in -- I think, might lead to some reallygreat results.It's not to diminish Deputy Chief Mendoza or anybody elsein the command staff. But when you start layering in folks --and then you said it earlier, you don't want to hear the Chiefsay, "I didn't know." Well, if you put Chief Mitchell indirect contact with IAD on a regular basis, he'll have to know.And I don't know him that well, but I think, personally, hewill do that.THE COURT: Thank you.MR. LUCIA: Okay. You're welcome.THE COURT: Ms. Martin?MS. MARTIN: Thank you, Your Honor. So you asked where has the City been in all this? Wherehas the City been? We have all met so many times in the lastseveral months that we haven't necessarily had regular standingmeetings, because we've just been meeting constantly about whatwe're doing and where we're going and how to get there in thiscase.And we've been asking ourselves not just what went wrongin this case, what were the deficiencies, how do we make surethese issues don't happen again? We've all been askingourselves, what is the deeper issue in the system? That everyyear or two, with different groups of people, is failing -- isenabling and fostering these failures? What is that problem 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 42 of 57 43and how do we get at that problem, identify it, and fix it?Because that's what we're seeing; right?It's not these individual deficiencies. It's thisrepeated issue. I believe the monitor referred to it as"systemic." Maybe the definition of "systemic." You've gotgroups of different people making essentially similar failuresevery couple of years. So we agree. We are all trying tofigure this out.And we have, in the past, had what we call "tri-weeklymeetings" with the City Administrator, City Attorney's Office,the Mayor, the Chief of Police, and Assistant Chief of Police.As I've said, since Chief Mitchell joined and since we've hadso many other irregular meetings, we haven't continued that.But that is something that we can continue to do, once again,and revive our regular standing meetings, because we havealways had those types of meetings.The City Administrator did come to an Internal Affairsmeeting a couple of weeks ago. So that is something thathappens. It's not necessarily regular. That's something thatwe could talk about -- making it regular. But it does happen.We've also had the City Administrator's Office hire aconsultant who is looking into what the potential transfer ofsome responsibilities from IA to the CPRA would look like.That's something that our City Council ordered us to lookinto a couple of years ago. And it's not something that's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 43 of 57 44going to happen tomorrow or probably, hopefully, while we'restill under oversight. But it is something that shows that weare looking at how to make us better at policing ourselves.We also have the Mayor or the City Administrator,generally, regularly attend our risk management meetings. Sowe are all on the same page and all in this together.Certainly, we can talk about additional standing meetings orregular participation of more folks in the City. But it issomething that we're doing.I -- THE COURT: But I assume, with all of these meetings,that -- that Officer Tran's issues didn't come up, thatSergeant Chung's issues didn't come up. And so -- MS. MARTIN: Yes.THE COURT: So help me out there, Ms. Martin -- MS. MARTIN: Yes.THE COURT: -- on how this is going to -- what you'resuggesting is going to impact this. MS. MARTIN: Well, that specifically was in responseto Your Honor's suggestions about making sure the City isparticipating and that whatever message is coming down is notonly coming down from the Chief, but from city leadershipitself -- the Mayor, the City Administrator.And part of this is there's a theme of consistency. It'ssomething that I think everyone, if not almost every speaker up 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 44 of 57 45here, has said the word "consistent" or "consistency" today.Consistency is key. We've got the policies. The Departmentjust needs to consistently follow the policies. Now, how arewe going to do that? It's not as simple as just saying "do itor you'll get in trouble," because that doesn't work.So there are two parts to this. One is that every memberof the Department needs to know the policies. But the secondpart, which is probably the most important part and might bewhy we are in this predicament, is they have to understand, ata deeper level, why these policies are important; why theyshould care, as individuals, that they should be followingthese policies; how these policies can lead to increased trustwith the community if they are followed; and how thesepolicies, if not followed, can lead to a breach of publictrust. That's why they're important. And that's the piecethat's missing.And there is movement in the Department to restart itsquarterly command staff retreat, as well as its monthly commandstaff and professional staff meetings, to agendize specific NSAitems, starting with task five and starting with InternalInvestigations, to send that message. And it's got to come --the belief and the respect for these policies has to be feltand communicated from the top. From the Mayor, from the CityAdministrator, and from the Police Chief.But, at these meetings, it's not going to be just a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 45 of 57 46discussion of what the policy is and you've got to follow it,but getting to the heart of why we should all care and why wedo all care about these policies, and why we have to followthem and why we should want to follow them. And so that iswhere the Department is, and that's what we're trying to do.Because, again, it is about culture.And it's great that we all get up here and say we've gotto change culture. Great. That is not, by definition, acheck-the-box thing to do. It is probably the opposite. So,yes, we know what we have to do that. But this is how we seeour way forward right now. This is what we're doing to thebest of our ability. And, again, this is something everyone inthe City has asked themselves and each other a million times,because we do care and we are working at this.And I believe that we'll get there, because all of thegreat things that the Police Department has accomplished whenthey put their mind to it -- that shows me -- that is evidencethat they can do it if they put their mind to it and they puttheir hearts in it. We will get there. We will.And maybe -- maybe this is the most difficult thingbecause we've all talked a lot about how policing yourselves inany organization, but particularly a police department, isdifficult. Maybe that's why it's been easier for them toembrace the spirit of the NSA when it comes to the outwardpolicing, because it's easier to understand how those things 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 46 of 57 47impact the community. But we need to also make sure thateverybody understands how the Internal Affairs issues impactthe community. And, sadly, with this last and most recentfailure, I think that it's pretty clear how that impacts thecommunity. So maybe that will be an easier example to helppeople start that understanding.I think, in addition to, you know, getting that off theground, to try to get that message coming through about whythese things matter -- I don't know that a separate reportabout what we're going to do and how we're going to solve thiswould be helpful. I feel like the monitor is already thatdevice or mechanism for the Department. We do report and theCity reports to the monitoring team, which provides anassessment.THE COURT: Although the monitor didn't -- wasn't madeaware of the Tran matters until well after they were beinginvestigated; right?MS. MARTIN: Well, my understanding is the monitor wasaware of the initial investigation, but not all of themisconduct that occurred. That the investigation wasunderway -- the one that failed -- the initial investigation.But, yes. But that's also something that the City sees as kindof a positive step in the right direction. The fact that -- THE COURT: Well, I don't think that it's positivethat the monitor wasn't made aware of what the problems were. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 47 of 57 48Because the monitor -- because it means that I have no idea.It means that I'm assessing how the City and the NSA is beingimplemented or not without a full picture. And it is aproblem. So I -- so I wouldn't -- that's not something where Iagree with you.MS. MARTIN: And I'll clarify, Your Honor. I'm notsaying -- I'm -- my intent was to say that the City directedthe outside investigation. But I don't want to get intoexactly what the monitor knew when. But the monitor and theCity and everyone knew once the Court order came out on thehabeas petition that sort of shed light on everything that wasthen brought to light in the press.So we -- we all -- many of us -- found out at the sametime. And we never kept that from the monitor and folks whowere aware. So -- but that's -- that's really -- we don't needto go into the past. We're looking toward the future on this.And I think another thing that could be helpful in thiscase is allowing us to focus more on these tasks. And we havebuilt a wonderful model for force and force review. And it'svery different -- the internal investigation side is verydifferent in many ways. But we're hoping we can sort of pickup that same sort of modeling after what the monitor has sortof given us with the force review -- doing that with internalinvestigations.So another thing that might be helpful is if we could end 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 48 of 57 49our affirmative assessment by the monitor of tasks 24 and 25.While the Department will still be doing all of its ownindependent assessment, which is exactly what it would be doingif the monitor was still here, the little bit that it wouldn'tbe doing -- like sending the reports for the case numbers andfiguring out which IA cases correspond to the use-of-forcecases -- to send that to the monitor -- even though it would bedoing its own assessment still, there is the persistentadministrative overhead that would be cut out and also,possibly, it would allow the monitoring team to provide thatassistance on the other tasks -- on task five or on theinternal investigations instead of focusing on tasks 24 and 25.Because we do -- even in our -- in our site visitmeetings, we have a specific meeting where we talk for multiplehours about use of force and force review, but we don't have asimilar meeting with a conversation about our Internal Affairsinvestigations. And part of that consistency is that we haveto make sure that we're following policy on even the smallercases or not the big, significant cases, because it has to beall the way through so that when we have a big, significantcase, we have the muscle memory in place to make sure thatwe're following those policies. And I will say, based on the changes to policy that we hadin -- that were memorialized in policy in November of 2023 --there have been a lot of changes that I can see every day in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 49 of 57 50how the Department handles its business. We have a lot moremeetings with note takers on any criminal investigation of anemployee and parallel Internal Affairs investigations that areattached to those. So the big, important cases and thesignificant wrongdoing -- there is -- there are a lot moremeetings, people are looped in, and there is documentation ofthat.So I do think that it is moving in the right direction. Ido think that there has been progress since -- especially sinceNovember 2023. But, again, I think that message from the topof this Department and the leadership in the City about whywe're doing this and why these policies matter is the key.THE COURT: It's big. But the -- and I -- so I agreewith -- with all of that. And the -- it comes down to why --why does it continue to happen? And it is -- and the policies,I think, are important. But it comes down to integrity. Itcomes down to courage. Because I think it's really -- I thinkpolicing -- policing yourself in any institution is hard. AndI imagine it's particularly hard in the Police Department justbecause of the important work that is done public-facing.So -- but -- but the -- this failure of being able to --and maybe some of it is sweeping things under the rug. I don'tknow. But I think it is this sort of human failure, which Ithink only changes if there are -- if there is clear leadershipat the top and involved leadership so that everybody knows that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 50 of 57 51this is -- this is a really big deal. I think it's -- I don'tthink it's anything else than that. And that's -- that's whyI'm thinking about what I'm thinking about. Because I knowthere's so many other problems and issues and things going onwith respect to what I have to deal with, which is themonitoring of the NSA.This is the one big issue. This is -- and it is -- and ithas existed in one form or other since the writers. And it'sgot to stop. So -- and that means some change somewhere. Andhow that works is what I'm concerned about.MS. MARTIN: Thank you, Your Honor.THE COURT: All right. Thank you.Mayor Thao, welcome. And I appreciate -- I know thatthere are a few things going on. And so I appreciate the factthat you've come here, because it does show your commitment tothe issues that are involved.MAYOR THAO: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honor, forhaving us today.In the last time that we met, you said to me "I want youto have a Chief next time." And so we have our Chief. Butwhat you stated -- and I'm just going to throw out everythingthat my staff has written for me to say -- because what youstated is incredibly important.I agree with Mr. Burris around the fact that this isaround people and having that true integrity. And it is about, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 51 of 57 52you know, having the wherewithal to, yes, reprimand and haveconsequences for those who may have a lot of political pullwithin the community, whether it's -- because there's a lot ofnuances; right? It's just not that you are the Chief ofPolice, and that's where you sit, and that's all you are. Youcould be seen within the community as a bigger entity, as amore influential entity. But that's not good enough to holdthat and not have the integrity part.And so, with that being said, you know, what I can assureto you is that I have been -- what I have learned in thisposition in my short less than two years as mayor is that alldepartments -- they -- they need strong leadership. They needto know where they're headed. Not just that, but they needconsistent -- consistent, face-to-face meetings to ensure that,yes, I am still watching what you're doing. I'm stillmeasuring what you're doing. You know, and that has been thecase and I -- you know -- with all departments. So I wouldn'tsay that it's not the case with OPD. Because it's why I dohave so many -- I have a lot of meetings with, you know, thePolice Chief, with Assistant Chief Beere.I do commend that this is a whole new executive team thatthe Police Chief has. You've heard from the Police Chiefhimself. And, you know, I've -- you know -- when I'm out onthe streets, I ask rank and file how they feel about the Chief.And they all say that they feel good about the Chief. That 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 52 of 57 53they feel like he's fair -- that he's fair. And that is theminimum.What we have seen -- that the change here in the mostrecent case is that it's no longer the rank and file who are --you know -- who are causing these little gaps in regards to howwe're moving forward. It is actually the top-tier -- the execteam; right? And so, with that being said, you know, coming into --I -- I want to be very clear, for the public to know, too --that this case involves the previous chief -- Chief LeRonneArmstrong -- and the previous mayor; however, with that beingsaid, this could happen again. It could.But what I can commit to you today is that either myoffice -- I have my Chief of Education and Community Safety,Brooklyn Williams, here who works with me at the OPD veryclosely, and then Jestin Johnson, the City Administrator. Ifit's not someone from my office, then it has to be someone fromMr. Johnson's office to attend these IAD meetings, you know,just to make sure that we are still on track.But, to the other point, if OPD's exec team does not liftit up, we would never know about it. So there needs to be thatintegrity piece held by these directors. And, for me, that'sexactly what I look for when I do my hiring. As you know, wewent through this whole debacle of getting the next policechief. And, yes, it wasn't a popular thing to do for me to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 53 of 57 54say, "Absolutely" -- you know -- "I'm going to ask for anotherlist," and "Yes, it's going to take more time." But that'swhat I was looking for. I was looking for that integritypiece. I was looking for fresh eyes to come in to say, youknow what, whatever culture is here that is not headed in theright direction, that this person wasn't born out of thatculture. Because we're talking over 25 years. I mean, you'retalking about people who were born through this culture. Andso if that's what you're born into, maybe that's all you know.And so, for me, understanding that there is acost-benefit -- you know, we always talk about cost-benefit --the analysis of that -- what is the cost to not having theintegrity? The cost is a bunch of things. We, the City, paythe monitor. That money could be used for OPD or anythingelse. We -- I'm spending hours here with you. These hourscould be spent getting money for the City.And so, you know, with that being said, you know, it is --I've only been mayor for, you know, less than two years. ButI've been with the City -- worked from the smallest rank --from an intern -- and now I am mayor. And I can tell you thatI am sick and tired of coming here, as well.And so, with that being said, that is my commitment toyou. I'm not going to talk a lot, because you hear the samething over and over. You're frustrated, I'm frustrated,everybody's frustrated at the point that we're here today. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 54 of 57 55You know, the frustration is that we need to do better.And this is why, right when I came in, I funded the beginningworks of making sure that the internal investigation is withCPRA. You know, it's very hard -- I get it. It's very hard topolice yourself when you're all friends; right? But in orderto make this process, you know, a little bit better, we'refunding that process. You know, so we're taking that part veryseriously.But, in the interim, I will commit to working more closelywith the Chief on IAD. And if someone from my office is notpresent, then there will be someone from Mr. Johnson's officeto be present. But, again, we really demand for our executiveteam at OPD to be -- to have that integrity. And I believe andI know that, under Chief Mitchell, we have that. Because, as Itold him earlier, just jokingly, he has the long experience.You know? He gains nothing for sweeping things under the rug.This is what I like about him; right? He's already anestablished person who has been Chief in many different cities.You know, coming to be Chief here -- we thank him forcoming here -- bringing that new perspective -- but he gainsnothing for sweeping things under the rug. This could be hislast Chief job; right? And he's okay with that. But that'simportant to note, that that is the big difference with thisChief. Thank you.THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 55 of 57 56All right. So it's time to go. The -- I'm -- tomorrow orFriday, I'm going to issue an order, maybe in the minute order,maybe in a separate order, and I'm going to think about whateverybody has said today. I'm -- I'm planning to do somethingthat changes the paradigm a little bit here. And I'm going toask that -- and it has to do with the reporting and the meetingobligations. I just -- I want to think about how I'm going toarticulate it. But I am going to articulate it by tomorrow orFriday.I'm going to ask that the City provide me with a statusreport on my -- on what I have directed them to implement.Because I don't want to wait three months for a plan. I wantthis happening this month. And I want, on October 8th, to knowwhat -- where -- where things are. We'll have another CMC onJanuary 8th at 3:30. But I want to -- I suspect that there isgood momentum in the Department now on these issues. And --and I want to make -- I want to make this happen for all of us.So -- and particularly for the City of Oakland, because theCity deserves me being out of the picture, full compliance withan agreement that was comprehensive and well -- has served theCity well -- but it's time to -- it's time for the City to berunning it. And with the political -- I'm not cutting the Commissionout of this, because "the City" includes the Commission. "TheCity" includes -- includes the entire polity. And how the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
Case 3:00-cv-04599-WHO Document 1673 Filed 10/08/24 Page 56 of 57 57 politics work, I'm not dealing with. But to make sure that theconstitutional policing from top to bottom is occurring inOakland is my domain, and I want to make sure that thathappens. And that then Mr. Chanin and Mr. Burris and Mr. Luciaand I can go off into the sunset somewhere and everybody elsecan deal with the things that really matter.So thank you all for being here. I will look forward toseeing you in January.(Proceedings adjourned at 5:06 p.m.) ---oOo--- CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. DATE: Monday, October 7, 2024 _____________________________________________ Kendra A. Steppler, RPR, CRR Official Reporter, U.S. District Court 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910111213141516171819202122232425
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