M EMQRAN DLJ M City of Poway
ADDITIONAL MATERIALS
(Agenda Related Writings/Documents provided to City Council or Staff after distribution of the Agenda Packet for the July 15, 2025 Council Meeting)
DATE:
TO:
FROM:
CONTACT:
SUBJECT:
July 15, 2025
Honorable Mayor and Members of the City Council
Ellis Webster, Deputy City Clerk ~
(858) 668-4533 or [email protected]
Item 13 -A Specific Plan Amendment (SPA 24-0002) to the Old Poway Specific Plan (OPSP) for the establishment of a Music Overlay District (MOD) for the existing Commercial General (CG) Zone and EA25-0001, a Negative Declaration for the Music Overlay District (MOD) within the Old Poway Specific Plan Attached please find correspondence received after the agenda posting deadline.
Reviewed/Approved By:
Assistant City Manager
1 of7
Reviewed By:
Alan Fenstermacher
City Attorney
Appr~v
1 ed 17
~
Chris Hazeltine
City Manager
July 15, 2025, Item #13
From:
To:
Subject:
Date:
Jill Nasman
~
July 15, 2025 City Council Meeting
Monday, July 14, 2025 11:46:06 AM
I You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is important EX'l'ERNAL ~-MAI
Dear City Clerk,
I wish to make comments at the upcoming city council meeting, 7/15/2025, regarding item #13, the Old Poway Park plan for establishing a music overlay.
I live at 14126 Sycamore Ave, Poway which is at the end of the dirt road on the west side of the Old Poway Park. My front yard looks out to the Old Poway Park gazebo. I have lived in this house for over forty years and have lived in Poway since 1965. The impact of live outdoor electrified music on the residence of Old Poway Park is a serious concern.
1) Enforcement of established sound levels
I have concerns regarding enforcement of sound levels as there is a history of both the Hop Stop and Mission Cellars disregarding both Poway City rules for having live electrified music and citizen's requests to have them follow the city's rules and/or turn down the volume "just a little bit, please". During the period prior to the discussion of a music plan overlay there have been numerous loud music events that occured when the businesses had not acquired the required live music permits. When I contacted several city employees and asked for guidance because the loud music occurs outside of the city office's working hours I was told to contact them and when it occurred off business hours to call the sheriff. I have done that and feel like it is incorrect usage of the sheriffs valuable time. Please discuss the procedures for enforcement of the sound level guidelines. 2) Impact of multiple overlapping live outdoor music events The other concern is that the music study does not appear to recognize the impact of the music on events taking place during Poway city events which include well established park events and outdoor wedding events in the gazebo that often extend to 1 O p.m. There have been several times when the Farmers Market manager hired and set up live music to accompany the shoppers and it was met with the Hop Stop setting up live electrified music directly across the street inside their patio at such loud levels that it destroyed the enjoyment of the music at the city's event. When discussions were made to have the music turned down or turned off at the Hop Stop it was met with hostility and initial lack of cooperation. It did finally cease.
3) Recognition of the impact of low frequency sounds (bass) felt as vibrations through residence's whole house
The music study did not measure the impact of the low bass frequency sound waves that travel through the ground which can impact with greater distances than airborne sounds. There have been multiple times when the owners of the Hop Stop and Mission Cellars have allowed the musicians to set up bass enhancing drum platforms and bass guitars that vibrate and send the low bass frequency tones so that they are felt within resident's homes, with the windows closed, during the whole four hour+ music sessions. These low frequency decibel levels are difficult to measure. 4) Sound study measurement during actual multiple live band events rather than just hypothetical
It appears that the music study was conducted with measurements of theoretical sound wave travel levels, the buildings locations and distance from the music source to residence's houses as standard elements in their study results rather than real time measurements of the live music in operation. There have been times when there was music being generated from Hop Stop, Mission Cellars, the OPP 2of7 July 15, 2025, Item #13
gazebo during summer concert events, and/or outdoor live music wedding parties in the gazebo and the impact of three or more music sources has a much more significant impact on residents. With the opportunity for other restaurants to have live outdoor electrified music (such as Smokin Js BBQ) this needs to be considered.
As a resident of Old Poway Park for over four decades and over six decades of the city of Poway I urge you to think about gathering more input from residents, setting up a period for re-evaluation after a three to six month period and have an official employee to train the resturants on how to use a sound level meter every time live music is set up and have a city recourse available in real time to measure sound levels at times of dispute.
Sincerely,
Jill LaHaye
(858) 395-1214
October 27, 2024
Email I sent to:
Dear City of Poway, Stan Donn & Chris Hazeltine:
I am presenting this information on behalf of myself, Jill Nasman LaHaye, and my husband, Patrick LaHaye. We live at 14126 Sycamore Ave in Old Poway. Our house is at the end of Sycamore Ave with our front yard facing the gazebo in Old Poway Train Park (OPTP). I have lived in Poway since 1964 and Patrick since 1971 . I have lived in our current house since 1991 and have known its history since it was built in 1967.
Here is a little bit of history about the development of OPTP. In 1992, the founder of the running of the train, as part of OPTP, Roger Mollins, invited the neighbors near the park to give input about the reintroduction of the train to the park area and its usage hours. The train tracks had been used for years by the previous owner, Col. Porter as he ran his train collection around the tracks now and then. As the OPTP increased in popularity for use as a wedding venue and Poway community events the need for monitoring the increased use of live outdoor music (LOM) and recorded music at very high volume warranted the need for some regulation. Thanks to Sarah Becker, community ranger at the park, and others, the use of sound level meters were implemented. The music was primarily outdoors in the gazebo and the use of the sound level meters improved the quality of life for us residents living near the OPTP.
Recent increases in the unregulated live outdoor music (LOM) by the restaurants, Hop Stop (HS) and Mission Cellars (MC), have significantly impacted the quality of life in the neighborhood. As covid hit, outdoor dining increased and that is about the time that Hop Stop started LOM. From our house the music was both heard and felt to such a significant degree that it was evident from the beginning to the end of the LOM sets, sometimes from 6 pm to 9 pm. What was significant is that the music could be heard and felt through our double paned windows when closed and we were in the back of our house.
During a one LOM session, I went over to HS and introduced myself as a neighbor and 3 of7 July 15, 2025, Item #13
asked if the music could be turned down. The employee behind the bar responded by telling me that he had no control over the volume of the music since the band determined the volume. I found this both confusing and significant that HS was showing a lack of accountability when having bands play on their outdoor patio. During the next several months I went to HS when they had LOM and asked if they could turn it down and if they had a sound meter to measure how loud it was. I was dismissed again. On a third time when LOM was happening during a Saturday Farmers Market, I asked if the music could be turned down and was told "No". On this day I found out that the Farmers Market manager, Suzanne Bendixen, had been asking them on several Saturdays if they could turn down their LOM and she was dismissed as well.
The additional concern of having heard that the Farmers Market manager had asked HS to lower their music with no success was concerning. Suzanne hires musicians to provide music to enhance the shopping experience and not only were the musicians unhappy that their music couldn't be heard but that their reliance on tips would be impacted too.
As part of my attempt to find out the city's policy regarding LOM I visited code compliance at city hall where I met Norm Hubbert, who listened to my questions and told me he would investigate with his superior. Once Norm contacted me and indicated that there was a need for an entertainment license and that neither HS or MC had such permits nor had applied for them then he proceeded to contact both establishments and tell them that they needed to stop LOM until the process had been completed. After both HS and MC were contacted by the city to discontinue LOM they waited a few weeks and then started up LOM again for at least two to three different occasions each. When I called Norm to let him know that they had disregarded his notifications and who would be enforcing the city policy he said that it was outside his work hours and that he appreciated my information. The LOM typically occurred on Friday and Saturday nights. This point gets me to one of my concerns and that is who will be in charge of enforcement of any LOM ordinances. Will there be a city official to train the onsite employees how to use sound meters or will it be up to me to do sound level metering and call the sheriff? With the multiple disregard for adjusting music and/or not playing music when it is not allowed has me extremely concerned that this battle will continue with little for the neighbors to do because once LOM is up and going there will be no recourse that can cancel out their loud music at the moment of it occurring but to just endure it for the three to four hours it is occurring. Is that anyway to treat a long standing quiet neighborhood?
My other concern is the establishment of the purpose of the OPTP. As a member of the Poway Historical Society, I have discussed with members the impact of unregulated LOM on city events and weddings. There have already been several times when the HS and MC had LOM going on during Band Fest, for example, and it was overwhelming to be in the neighborhood on those occasions. As the OPTP is viewed as a premier outdoor wedding location for both the sacred wedding ceremony and the reception it is hard to imagine how welcome LOM blasting from just a few yards away will be at HS and MC.
Additional information: Smokin J's has outdoor music provided by speakers for its customers but as I measured it last month it was at near to 60 dB as measured at the 4of7 July 15, 2025, Item #13
sidewalk by their restaurant. How is this not an option for both HS and MC to use for their customers? Why do customers sitting at tables five to ten feet from the LOM need to have it blasted at 70-90 dB?
Probably my biggest concern that will be overlooked during the city's acoustic measurements is the impact that low Hz (250-500) has on quality of life. The kind of noise that travels through the ground and is difficult to measure with typical sound level tools.
Imagine a car that I'm sure that you have encountered, that has a low bass woofer speaker that plays music that you really can't hear but feel through your whole body. You typically encounter this car briefly at a stop light or passing you on the street. Now imagine that uncomfortable experience happening at your house and the whole house has a low bass trembling through it and it continues for hours and hours. It may even happen while you are trying to sleep or just relax in front of the TV but you can't. Would you really allow this to happen to your house? The house of your parents or your whole neighborhood? Over the decades, the neighborhood of Old Poway Train Park has had to deal with adjusting to having the loud roar of the steam locomotive, the screeching of the street car, the dinging of the train crossing bells, the loud disco music of wedding parties that can go late into the night. Why are you adding more loud live outdoor music allowances for businesses that have shown over multiple occurrences that they have no regard for the city of Poway regulations let alone the nearby neighbors or Farmers Market managers? Please put a stop to, or regulate it closely, live outdoor music in the Old Poway neighborhood.
(I have documentation of the multiple incidents mentioned above and can provide on request)
5 of7 July 15, 2025, Item #13
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POWAY
CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
July 14, 2025
Dear Mayor Vaus and Councilmembers,
On behalf of the Poway Chamber of Commerce, I am writing to express our strong support for SPA24-0002 - the proposed amendment to the Old Poway Specific Plan allowing regulated outdoor music at businesses along Midland Road between Edgemoor and Temple Streets.
We applaud the City of Poway for taking a thoughtful, community-focused approach to this proposed change.
As outlined in the City's agenda, this amendment would create a performance-standards-based music overlay district, enabling outdoor music with reasonable limitations on decibel levels, hours of operation, and permitting processes.
Why the Poway Chamber Supports This Amendment:
1. Stimulating the local Economy
Outdoor music enhances the atmosphere of dining, shopping, and community engagement. It encourages foot traffic and longer visitor stays-benefits that directly support the businesses and entrepreneurs we represent throughout the Old Poway corridor.
2. Building on Cultural Momentum
The City's "Music in the Park" initiative and other community-centered events show that residents and visitors welcome music as a way to come together. Formalizing this within the Specific Plan will help extend those benefits to our local small businesses in a responsible way.
3. Promoting local Talent and Community Identity
Allowing curated outdoor performances creates a platform for local artists and reinforces Poway's reputation as a family-friendly, culturally rich community-"The City in the Country." The overlay district supports this vision in a structured, manageable format.
4. Balanced, Responsible Implementation
The proposed standards-such as operational time limits, volume controls, and permit requirements-demonstrate a thoughtful balance between business activation and neighborhood quality of life. We believe the City has addressed potential concerns with care and data-backed insight.
As the voice of the local business community, the Poway Chamber of Commerce believes this amendment will enhance the vitality of the Old Poway Park area and serve as a model for future community-business partnerships.
We respectfully urge the City Council to approve SPA24-0002 and help usher in a new chapter of economic and cultural vibrancy in Poway.
13029 Danielson Stree t, Suite 120 .. Pow2y, Cal iforn ia 92064 Office : (858) 748 -0016 i ,,-,-ww .Powav.com 6 of7 July 15, 2025, Item #13
Mike Leland
President & CEO
Poway Chamber of Commerce
[email protected]
(858) 748-0016
13029 02nielson Street, Sui te 120. Powav, California 92064 Office: (858) 748-0015 I w··Nw.Po·,,vav.com 7 of7 July 15, 2025, Item #13