ACTION MINUTES OF THE CITY COUNCIL
CITY OF VILLA PARK, CALIFORNIA
March 28, 2023
Regular Meeting
CLOSED SESSION
5:30 p.m. - City Council Chambers
CALL TO ORDER / ROLL CALL - Mayor Pitts called the Closed Session to order at 5:30 p.m.
COUNCILMEMBERS
PRESENT: Rossini, Jones, Miles, Pitts, and Wu
CLOSED SESSION
Conference with Labor Negotiators
City Representative: City Attorney
Unrepresented Employee: City Manager
Government Code Section 54957.6
GENERAL SESSION
6:30 p.m. - City Council Chambers
CALL TO ORDER / ROLL CALL - Mayor Pitts called the General Session to order at 6:30 p.m.
COUNCILMEMBERS
PRESENT: Miles, Jones, Wu (via Zoom), Rossini and Pitts PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG - The Pledge of Allegiance was led by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini.
CLOSED SESSION REPORT
City Attorney Litfin reported the City Council met earlier to discuss the two items listed on the Closed Session agenda. There was no reportable action; however there will be a City Manager contract amendment.
PRESENTATIONS / ANNOUNCEMENTS / COUNCIL MEETING REPORTS • Presentation - VPHS Cheer
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Mayor Pitts presided over the recognition of VPHS Game Day Cheer Team who placed silver in the National High School Cheerleading Championships. He congratulated them on their hard work. Game Day and CIF Championship Cheer Teams were present and were given high regards by their coaches, Head Coach Cruz "Izzy", Cheer Advisor Miss H" and Coach Gabe who told of their extraordinary journey to the finals.
Brendon Moeller, Congressional aide to Congressmember Young Kim, presented certificates of appreciation to members of the Cheer Teams.
Photographs were taken with City Councilmembers.
• Orange County Sheriff's Department
A Sergeant from the Orange County Sheriff's Department (OCSD) provided the following February 2023 report. There were 286 major calls for service, including, 1 robbery, 2 attempted burglaries, 1 grand theft to an unlocked vehicle with a total loss of $11,000. It was further reported that there were 2 narcotics arrest. There were 5 traffic accidents reported (3 non-injury plus 2 injury) along with 30 traffic citations reported (7 parking citations plus 23 traffic control citations). OCSD reminded citizens to ensure that their home and vehicle doors are locked and with the recent rains and more coming our way, citizens were reminded to drive a little slower and to be a little more patient on the roads. • Orange County Fire Authority
Orange County Fire Authority (OCFA) Chief Scott Wiedensohler reported that OCFA has responded to 104 units dispatched to 38 incidents. Chief Wiedensohler thanked the residents and councilmembers of Villa Park who attended OCFA's Open House on March 4'h stating there were over 4,500 people in attendance. Homage was paid to long time Reserve/Paid Call Firefighter, Engineer Doug Miller, passed away and was laid to rest.
Public Safety Announcement information which can be found at OCFA.org was given by Chief Wiedensohler as follows:
The ABC's of Water Safety
• Active Adult Supervision
• Barriers
• Classes (swim classes and First Aid & CPR classes)
• BBQ Safety
• 10,200 grilling fires nationwide leading to $123 million dollars in property damage each year.
• Proper charcoal and propane handling was discussed.
Mayor Pitts expressed his appreciation to the OCFA thanking them for their service and professionalism on the
job.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
PUBLIC COMMENTS
There were no general public comments submitted.
2. Waive reading in full of all ordinances and resolutions on the agenda.
The City Manager explained the state law requiring the reading of all ordinances and agendas on the agenda for the benefit of the new members of the dais. He explained this vote waives the legal requirement to read them.
Mayor Pitts opened the public hearing. There being no speakers, the public hearing was closed.
A motion was made by Councilmember Miles, seconded by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini, to waive the reading in full of all ordinances, resolutions, and meeting minutes on the agenda, and direct the City Clerk to read by title only.
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones, Wu, Rossini and Pitts
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
3. [Continued from 02/28/2023] Variance No. 2023-03 at 9531 Las Flores Circle City Manager Steve Franks noted there were no significant changes to the application.
Planning Assistant Urbanski provided a staff report on the item as detailed in the agenda report. Mr. Urbanski utilized a PowerPoint presentation in support of his report which highlighted view analysis studies as well as privacy litigation measures that could be implemented. The neighbor directly across the street from the subject property at rescinded his letter of opposition and now submitted a letter of support for the variance.
A new letter of opposition of the variance, not submitted with City Planning report, was read aloud.
Mayor Pitts opened the public hearing.
Mayor Pro Tem Rossini inquired whether the property owner was present at the meeting - there was no response from the property owner. Mayor Pro Tem Rossini remarked that despite his efforts to contact the property owner, it proved to be unfruitful. Councilmember Miles concurred that despite her efforts to contact the property owner to schedule a meeting to ask very important questions, they were futile and as a result she was very disappointed.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Applicant Danny Wang was thanked for his participation and questioned by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini as to where, if any, are any other homes the property owner might own and what type of business the property owner is involved in.
Mayor Pro Tem Rossini expressed his strong reservations with a 'Yes" vote, namely, because of the property owner's inability to be transparent. He reminded Council that his concerns are more than just the size of the property but include trusting the architect but verifying with the owner that his intentions are noble, and that the property is for residential purposes. He reminded Councilmembers of their role to investigate and doing their due diligence and owe it to the neighbors and the community to do that.
Councilmember Jones clarified that the homeowner is under no obligation to speak with Council. She further reiterated her previous clarifying question to Mr. Urbanski regarding the implied intent of the design of the property.
Councilmember Wu expressed his view toward Council requiring the property owner contact Councilmembers directly or to be present at the City Council meeting as a positive sign to impact their vote. He urged Councilmembers not to speculate but to take notice and to judge the property owner's request not his future intent in ruling on this variance.
Councilmember Miles thanked Mr. Wang for his use of story poles and for meeting with her. She expressed her concerns with being ignored by the homeowner and questions the legitimacy of the homeowner's request for variance to his property.
Councilmember Mils confirmed with staff that there were 3 or 4 letters of opposition plus 1 letter of support.
Mayor Pitts closed the public hearing.
A motion was made by Mayor Pitts, and seconded by Councilmember Wu, to approve Variance No. 2023-03.
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Jones, Wu, and Pitts
NOES: Miles, Rossini
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
4. Variance No. 2023-04 at 9492 Sandra Circle
City Manager Franks informed Councilmembers that staff are recommending that this item be continued to the April 25, 2023 City Council Meeting upon the vote of Council.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
The Applicant/Property Owner expressed his intent and shared the specifications of his Variance request as well as the current state of any proactive architectural plan revisions made in accord with the constructive feedback and suggestions received by City Council and staff in preparation for submission of his Variance request is heard and submitted.
Mayor Pro Tem Rossini thanked the Applicant/Property Owner for his level of respect toward the City Council, staff, and the community by his efforts thus far in seeking this Variance.
A motion was made by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini and seconded by Mayor Pitts, to continue the hearing on Variance No. 2023-04.
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones Wu, Mayor Pro Tem Rossini, and Mayor Pitts NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
5. Variance No 2023-05 at 19171 Mesa Drive
Planning Assistant Urbanski provided a staff report on the item as detailed in the agenda report. Nine letters of opposition to the project were received and read into the record by Mr. Urbanski. The Planning Department is recommending approval of the Variance for three reasons: 1. The lot has difficult topography which makes yielding a buildable pad difficult absent the 13-foot retaining wall; 2. The property has numerous easements which yield over 4,000 square feet of non-buildable area and 3. The subject property is oddly shaped with difficult contours and large setbacks.
Akshay Anand at 19181 Mesa Drive expressed his points of contention with the Variance stating that the project would encroaches on his privacy by allowing the subject property to peer into his living room and backyard pool area along with surrounding neighbors living areas as well.
Mr. Urbanski continued the staff report by using a PowerPoint presentation showing detailed images of the property, topography, surrounding properties and the impact the Variance would have on each.
Suhail Ishaq at 19125 Mesa Drive expressed his strong opposition to the Variance stating that the project violates the privacy of the surrounding homes but also obstructs the scenic views and may adversely affect the property values in and around the surrounding neighborhoods.
Darryl Wold at 9492 Villa Isle Drive expressed his opposition to the Variance stating that the project will provide a direct line of sight into his side yard and bedroom windows. Mr.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Wold's request to City Council to propose the use of story poles and to have an open discussion with the architect or if not, the property owner, to discuss and have dialog with surrounding neighbors regarding any possible mitigation that can be done or what the parties have in mind for mitigation in the way of landscaping and so on.
Hebat Badiee at 19161 Mesa Drive expressed his opposition to the Variance stating that there are some common issues between his property and the subject property that brings major concern. 1. The project will come as close as fifteen to twenty feet away and practically in his backyard with a direct line of site to his swimming pool. 2. The project will invade his and surrounding neighbor's privacy.
Brent Safran at 19252 Mesa Drive expressed his opposition to the Variance seconding the prior speakers and their objections to the project.
Thomas Bender on behalf of his family Sang and Youn Bang, the homeowners at 9481 Villa Isle Drive, conveyed their strong opposition to the Variance stating that the information submitted by the property owner and architect is at a minimum neither accurate nor completely truthful. Mr. Bender informs Council that there is conflicting information regarding all that has been done to mitigate any privacy issues which was explained in detail.
Tim Doering at 9471 Villa Isle Drive expressed his opposition to the Variance stating the project would a create a huge invasion of his privacy and his neighbor's privacy. Mr.
Doering further expressed is concern regarding heavy equipment/construction vehicle parking during the project and calls the City Council to action in terms of their due diligence to investigate the intent of the project.
Mayor Pro Tem Rossini expressed concern stating that staff did not take enough time to take into consideration the surrounding neighbors, the geotechnical challenges of the property lot and its unique nature before recommending approval of the Variance without certain prerequisites.
Councilmember Miles thanked everyone who spoke and attended the meeting for expressing their opinions toward the Variance request. Councilmember Miles expressed her thoughts on how egregious the Variance is.
Councilmember Wu thanked staff for their due diligence in bringing forth the Variance to allow Councilmembers to either approve or deny the project. He further remarked that he was empathetic toward the residents' opinions on the matter and have legitimate concerns regarding their privacy.
Councilmember Jones thanked all the residents who came forth and expressed their opinions on the Variance including staff. She shared her understanding regarding the scope of the Variance.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Mayor Pitts apologized to the residents in attendance who are impacted by the Variance.
The Mayor expressed his thoughts regarding the challenges faced by Council in consideration of the various Variance projects that require a decision and also mentioned that consideration must be given to impacts on neighbors as well.
A motion was made by Mayor Pitts to continue the hearing on Variance No. 2023-05 to give the applicant and the property owner the opportunity to share with the neighboring community their thought and design and to take into consideration the thoughts and ideas of the neighbors about the future of the subject property and seconded by Councilmember Wu.
A substitute motion was made by Councilmember Miles and seconded by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini to deny Variance No. 2023-05 with prejudice.
Clarification was given by the City Manager and the City Attorney as to the option Council would have to deny the Variance "without prejudice" verses with prejudice.
The substitute motion made by Councilmember Miles and seconded by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini to deny Variance No. 2023-05 with prejudice carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones, Rossini
NOES: Wu, Pitts
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
In consideration of the motion denying Variance No. 2023-05, the motion will return next month with the resolutions outlining the factors discussed which did not meet the required elements of State law and Council's discretion in determination of those issues to close the record in accordance with State requirements.
An Ha, the architect and designer in Variance No 2023-05 at 19171 Mesa Drive, addressed Council briefly with information about the current design for the project:
No motion was made by Council to reconsider the substitute motion.
Mayor Pitts closed the public hearing.
CONSENT CALENDAR (ITEMS # 6-10)
All items on the Consent Calendar are considered routine and are enacted by one motion approving the recommended action listed on the Agenda. Any member of the City Council, staff or the public may request an item be removed from the Consent Calendar for discussion or separate action. Unless otherwise specified in the request to remove an item from the Consent Calendar, all items removed shall be considered immediately following each action on the remaining items on the Consent Calendar.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Mayor Pitts requested Item No. 10 be pulled for separate consideration.
Mayor Pitts opened public comments. There being no speakers, public comments were closed.
A motion was made by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini, seconded by Mayor Pitts to approve Item Nos. 6 through 9 on the Consent Calendar. The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones, Wu, Rossini, Pitts
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
6. February's Cash and Investment Transparency.
The City Council received and filed the report.
7. Request approval of City Council Minutes of February 28, 2023 The City Council approved the City Council Minutes of February 28, 2023
8. 2022 General Plan Annual Progress Report
The City Council received and filed the GP APR. Preparation of the GP APR is not a project subject to California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA). 2022 Housing Element Annual Progress Report
The City Council received and filed the APR for calendar year 2022 and authorized City staff to submit the APR to HCD, and the Governor's Office of Planning and Research (OPR).
ITEMS REMOVED FROM THE CONSENT CALENDAR FOR SEPARATE
CONSIDERATION
10. Out of Area Travel Request
This item was removed from the Consent Calendar at the request of Mayor Pitts. He wanted to ensure all Councilmembers were aware of their budget allotment for travel, namely that Councilmember Miles was going to be able to attend the Washington, DC Advocacy Trip on April 17h - 20h.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
City Manager Franks informed the Councilmembers that the budget for travel is two thousand dollars per Councilmember per year with a limit of $85 food per diem.
Councilmember Miles stated that she had not made any reservations for the Advocacy Trip at this time. She noted that the cost for this trip, although it is typically more expensive for others, is $1,200, not including the cost for roundtrip transportation via airfare, which will not exceed her $2,000 limit.
A motion was made by Mayor Pitts, seconded by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini to approve Out- of-Area Travel for Councilmember Crystal Miles in her role as District 3 Representative to the ACC-OC Board of Directors.
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones, Wu, Rossini, and Pitts
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
NEW BUSINESS
11. Fiscal Year 2021-22 Basic Financial Statements
City Manager Franks reported that each year staff are required to perform an internal audit of financial statements, sampling, transactions, etc. each year. The City's in-house audit firm is Gruber and Lopez, Inc. who reported this year's audit, as in previous years, a clean audit whereby the City's financial statements reflect their true position - no irregularities or peculiarities were reported. Staff recommends approval.
Mayor Pitts opened public comments. There being no speakers, public comments were closed.
A motion was made by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini, seconded by Councilmember Miles to approve that the City Council receive and file 2021-2 Basic Financial Statements, the Report on Internal Control Over Financial Reporting and on compliance and other matters. Further, to approve, based on an audit of financial statements, the Independent Accountant's Report on applying agreed-upon procedures appropriations limit worksheets; and the Report on Communication with those charged with governance for the City of Villa Park.
(Note: said financial statements would be placed on the City website).
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
AYES: Miles, Jones, Wu, Rossini, Pitts
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
12. Award of Contract for Catch Basin Cleaning Services FY 2022-23 and 2023- 24.
City Manager Franks reported that the catch basins through the City have to be cleaned regularly. A bid was received by Ocean Blue Environmental Services, Inc. at $113 per catch basin. Villa Park has approximately 263 catch basins. The cost of regular annual cleaning of Villa Park catch basins (approximately 130 catch basin cleanings one year and the remaining catch basins the next year) would cost approximately $29,000 per year.
Staff recommend approval of Ocean Blue Environmental Services, Inc. for the contract maximum of $59,438.
Councilmember Miles inquired as to any increase in pricing by Ocean Blue Environmental Services, Inc. in previous years. Mr. Franks confirmed that there has been a slight increase since the last bid.
Mayor Pitts opened public comments. There being no speakers, public comments were closed.
A motion was made by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini, seconded by Councilmember Miles to approve and authorize the Mayor to execute an agreement with Ocean Blue Environmental Services, Inc. in the amount of $59,438 for the catch basin cleaning services for two years.
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones, Wu, Rossini, Pitts
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
Projec divertisement for Construction of East Carro villa Drive Rehabilitation City Manager Franks summarized the project indicating it is jointly funded through Federal money, City of Orange money and the City of Villa Park money. Staff will go out to bid for this project at an estimated cost of $476,000 ($200,000 from Federal money plus $100,000 from the City of Orange money plus $176,000 from Villa Park money). Currently Villa Park has in its Capital Projects/Capital Improvements Fund a total of $274,000. Staff is recommending approval to authorize the staff to advertise the project for construction and to make the appropriations adjustments to their approved budget.
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Mayor Pitts opened public comments. There being no speakers, public comments were closed.
A motion was made by Councilmember Miles, seconded by Mayor Pro Tem Rossini, to approve the plans and specifications for East Cerro Villa Drive Rehabilitation Project and to authorize the staff to advertise the project for construction.
The motion carried by the following roll call vote:
AYES: Miles, Jones, Wu, Rossini, Pitts
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
CITY MANAGER REPORT
14. Information from City Manager and/or City Staff
City Manager Franks invited interested parties to attend the budget workshop for Fiscal Year 2023-24 on Monday, April 10th beginning at 5:00 p.m.
There was no further action taken on this item.
MAYOR AND COUNCILMEMBER MATTERS
15. Individual Councilmember Information Items
• Councilmember meeting attendance reports:
• Orange County Mosquito & Vector Control District
(Councilmember Miles)
• 2023 Summer Campaign is starting and will include:
• New and engaging visuals
• Increased opportunities for Cities to participate for bragging rights during the campaign
Mosquitos are still breeding despite the cooler weather and more rain is expected which allows more opportunities for mosquito breeding sites. Residents are encouraged to dump and drain the rain immediately to prevent mosquito breeding SIT Team will begin studies in the coming weeks to test the chilling and compaction of mosquitos
• Laboratory staff recently tested the longevity of the mosquito L mate eggs
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
• Winter mosquito surveillance months are between January through March and the number of mosquitos is currently down probably due to the cooler weather.
• West Nile virus tested this year was 63. Villa Park reported having zero West Nile virus mosquitos this year.
: Dead birds were 2 instead of 53 last year Steve Shepherd in charge of operations at Vector Control has visited all schools in Villa Park which turned out negative for any mosquito breeding
Orange County Sanitation District
(Mayor Pitts)
• The board approved the 5-year regional service sewer fee schedule, namely a $13 per year increase beginning in July 1st
• Orange County Sanitation and Orange County Water district 1 received accolades for a world-renowned project whereby water is recycled and used for drinking. Enough water is being produced to service over 1 million residents in Southern California
Orange County Fire Authority
(Mayor Pro Tem Rossini)
• Congratulations was extended to local firefighters
• The Memorandum of Understanding was approved between the Orange County Professional Firefighters Association and OCFA which put firefighters back in contract for four years
• Election of the unscheduled vacancy of the Board Chair position was held and a unanimous vote was provided and Mayor Pro Tem Rossini was named the Board Chair of the Orange County Fire Authority
Orange County Library Advisory Board
(Mayor Pitts)
• Reported no meeting was held
• Orange Unified School District City Schools Committee (Councilmember Jones)
• First Five Orange County and Orange County Unified School District reported on the early development index or EDI data finding that only
55.2% of children aged 0 to 5 in Villa Park are considered fully supported by early childhood systems
• OUSD is looking to find partners in the Cities that OUSD serves to improve these numbers. These early learning specialists will be able to provide Villa Park Library with staff to read stories and give out tool kits that focus on building fine and gross motor skills to preschoolers at no cost.
Law Enforcement Advisory Committee (LEAC)
(Mayor Pro Tem Rossini)
Reported no meeting was held
March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Villa Park Community Services Foundation
(Councilmember Wu)
• Nowruz celebration was a great success. Congratulations was extended to the three Villa Park ladies who lead and put together the event.
• Upcoming Earth Day event on April 22nd from 8am to Noon (Villa Park Clean Up event) which will include an electronic scrap collection venue located in the Ralphs Plaza
• Document shredding event April 1st from 9am to Noon at City Hall City Hall will be decorated for Ramadan
• Proposed budget for Winter Wonderland is $3,500 and will be voted on in April
Housing Legislative Committee
(Councilmember Miles)
• Reported no meeting was held
Bridges at Kraemer Place Advisory Committee
(Councilmember Miles)
• There was no voting on any action items since there are still no alternates in place
An update was received regarding current bed capacity, namely 130 beds were filled as opposed to the 170 to 190 beds due to construction work for more soundproofing mitigation
Senior Citizens Advisory Committee
(Councilmember Miles)
• Bylaws were completed but need to be brought to the Senior Citizens Advisory Council (SCAC) for a vote before going to the Board of Supervisors
Additional Councilmember reports:
Councilmember Miles: Thanked the OCFA Division Chief for his hospitality during the OCFA Open House. She toured the Science Center with Congresswoman Kim and Councilmember Jones and had an opportunity to interact with students. Councilmember Miles wished everyone a happy Passover.
Councilmember Wu: Thanked the OCFA, Division Chief, and staff for a wonderful Open House experience.
Councilmember Jones: Reported that she was given the honor to be named Principal for the day at Parkside Education Center. Councilwoman Jones also thanked Principal Judy Lucas for her time and hospitality while she was there. She enjoyed attending Villa Park Little League opening day and seeing the creativity of the various floats as well as the enthusiasm of all the players. OCFA was thanked for a great open house event and did an excellent job at showcasing how OCFA makes the public safe. She attended and enjoyed the Nowruz celebration and gave special thanks to Villa Park Community March 28, 2023 Villa Park City Council Meeting Minutes
Services Foundation and Southern California Edison for their support as well as Councilman Wu, Nazanin Ahmadinia, Marjan Roshangar and Mina Asad for putting the Nowruz festival together.
Mayor Pro Tem Rossini: Thanked OCFA Division Chief Wiedensohler, Chief Fennessy and Assistant Chief Shane Sherwood for a very organized and successful open house which provided a tremendous opportunity for all communities. It was noted that OCFA is truly a regional fire authority servicing over two million people. Mayor Pro Tem Rossini wished Villa Park Little League success in this next year and was unable to attend opening day. Thanks was extended all the volunteers making an impact on the Villa Park Little League. Villa Park Community Services Foundation and all the volunteers who put together the Nowruz celebration were thanked which turned out to be amazing and thanked the Persian and Iranian community for being a part of the Villa Park experience.
He encouraged everyone to continue keeping the community safe.
Mayor Pitts: Toured the Villa Park High School Science Building. The Mayor was amazed at how well the teachers can manage such a large number of students and the entire experience was eye opening. Mayor Pitts also attended Villa Park Little League opening day. He thanked the leadership of Villa Park Little League for inviting the City Council.
The Mayor also met with Phil Chen, a member of the California State Assembly, and discussed some of the challenges currently be faced with meeting RHNA numbers
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 9:15 p.m. to the next regular Council meeting to be held Robbie Pitts, Mayor
City of Villa Park
ATTEST:
Steve Franks
City of Villa Park
Note: The above minutes are a summary of actions. A DVD recording of this meeting additionally serves as an official record and is available upon request from City Hall.